Episode 60: Shea Aquilano - It Never Always Gets Worse

Episodes

Jun 7

In five years Shea Aquilano went from her first 4-mile race to running for Team USA at the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships, all while training in pancake-flat Indiana.

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About this episode

Shea Aquilano ran her first race, a 4-miler, in 2019. During COVID she ran a virtual 50K on loops at Eagle Creek Park, and from there it snowballed: an 8 hour endurance race win, 50 milers, 100Ks, and a sixth- or seventh-place finish at the Lake Sonoma 50 that led to a spot on Team USA at the 2023 World Mountain and Trail Running Championships in Austria. She did all of it while studying neuroscience at Notre Dame and training on a tiny hill in South Bend.

We talk about how she uses what she knows about the brain to stay positive in long races, why she believes it never always gets worse, and what she learned from her DNF at mile 91 of her first 100-miler. Shea also shares what trail culture is like compared to road racing, fueling with beans, pickles and mashed potato pouches, her partnership with NAAK, and her dreams of Western States and UTMB.

In this episode, we discuss

The "Mountains, please" Indiana license plate and Subaru with a 100-miler sticker
Going from hating running in soccer to her first race, a 4-miler in 2019
Running a virtual 50K on loops at Eagle Creek Park during COVID
Starting at Notre Dame in 2019 and being sent home in the spring of her freshman year
Winning an 8 hour endurance race with about 48 miles
Mud, one pair of shoes and her first trail 50 miler in Kentucky
How the trail community differs from road racing
Fueling with bean burritos, pickle brine, mashed potato pouches and vegan products
Training for mountains on a 0.15-mile hill in South Bend and uphill treadmill work
Walking the last 10 miles of her first Black Canyon 100K with hip bursitis
Using her neuroscience background and the idea that it never always gets worse
Running the Lake Sonoma 50 and the Boston Marathon a week apart
Making Team USA and racing 22,000 feet of climbing at Worlds in Austria, where over half the field DNF'd
DNFing at mile 91 of her first 100-miler and tearing her meniscus in another race
Her partnership with NAAK, golden tickets and dreams of Western States and UTMB

Chapters

Intro
Mountains, please: an Indiana trail runner
From soccer to a 4-mile race in 2019
A virtual 50K during COVID
Notre Dame and neuroscience
Winning the 8 hour endurance race
Falls 50 and trail versus road culture
Real food, pickles and going vegan
Training for mountains in flat Indiana
Black Canyon 100K
It never always gets worse
Lake Sonoma 50, Boston and making Team USA
Worlds in Austria
DNFs and learning from failure
Gold star tattoos and miles for smiles
Sponsorship with NAAK and what's next

Where to find Shea

Instagram: @shea_aq

Mentioned in this episode

Races: Lucky Clover 4 Miler, 8 Hour Endurance Run at Butler, Falls 50 Miler, Black Canyon 100K, Lake Sonoma 50, Boston Marathon, World Mountain and Trail Running Championships, Indiana Trail 100, Canyons 100K, Javelina 100, Western States 100, Silver Rush 50, Leadville 100, Run Rabbit Run 100, UTMB, Full Mo 50K, CNO Indianapolis Monumental Marathon, Carmel Marathon, Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, New York City Marathon
Organizations and charities: University of Notre Dame, USATF, Team USA, Fleet Feet, Ainsley's Angels
Other: NAAK, Scott Jurek, Jim Walmsley, Courtney Dauwalter, Sarah Keyes, Grayson Murphy, Alexi Pappas, Eagle Creek Park, Monon Trail, "Stacy's Mom" by Fountains of Wayne

Previous guests mentioned

Related episodes

Frequently asked

Who is Shea Aquilano?

Shea Aquilano is an Indiana trail and ultramarathon runner and Notre Dame neuroscience graduate who ran for Team USA at the 2023 World Mountain and Trail Running Championships in Austria, just four years after her first race.

How did Shea Aquilano qualify for Team USA?

Shea Aquilano finished sixth or seventh at the Lake Sonoma 50 within the qualifying window, applied to USATF, and was selected for the long trail team at the World Mountain and Trail Running Championships.

What is Shea Aquilano's mindset for ultramarathons?

Shea Aquilano believes perception becomes reality and that it never always gets worse, so she breaks races into the next aid station and treats low points as temporary problems to solve.

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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically, so it may contain errors.

Welcome to finish lines and milestones with Ali Bretnacher incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals and fitness this. Podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets. Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting athletebouquets.com. Hello and welcome to episode 60. This is Ali Brettnacher and happy early Father's Day to all the dads listening to this episode when it comes out. I'm so thankful for my dad, my father-in-law and my husband. I'm lucky to be around so many incredible dads in my life. And ironically, I know this week's guest, Shay Aquilano, through my dad because he knows her dad.

So thanks guys. But during this episode we talk about all of Shay's ultra marathon adventures that have taken place only within the last five years. I love listening back to my reactions of the stories she tells me about how she's progressed from literally running a four mile race to now running 100 mile races in that period of time. And it's just crazy the things that she's accomplished and the things I know she's going to accomplish. I say this a couple times during the episode, but I feel so lucky to have a chance to get to know her now before she is really big and famous in the ultra running and trail running world.

So I hope you all enjoy this conversation with Shay Aquilano as much as I did. And if you don't already follow her on Instagram, go do that. She is Shay Shea under SCORE AQ and she didn't even tell me about the really cool stuff she's doing right now in Colorado for the trail team. So go check that out and perhaps we'll have her on at another time to tell us all about those adventures. But I hope you really love this conversation with Shay Aquilano. All right, Shay Aquilano is here. Is that how you say your last name? Yes, I've heard at least on the other podcast you were on that I mentioned he said it really fancy.

Like Aquilano? Yeah, he was like Aquilano. Like I just. Didn't. I'm from Indiana. I know. It was great. Thanks for being here. Yeah, of course. You're incredible. I told you I was so creepy. And I realized I was behind you because I noticed that your license plate said mountains, please. And it's an Indiana license plate. So anybody who's local or just knows Indiana, it's irony. Yep. It's. My car. And it's a Subaru and it has 100 Miller sticker on the back. So I was like, that's definitely Shay. Yep, Yep. Trying to get it out West where it belongs but. Someday, someday, someday. Oh my gosh, we have so much to talk about because as I started researching you, I was just, my mind was blown.

So you and I know each other through our dads and I. So I just, I knew your dad and then he would message me occasionally and be like, hey, yeah, my daughter Shay is doing this. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. And then he was so kind after I, you know, after I started my business to support me and purchase bouquets for you for your amazing races. And so thank you, Don. I appreciate that so much. So, yeah. So we've never actually met until today. And like I said, I just was like, holy crap, you're, you're absolutely incredible. So we're going to get into all that.

But you know, being from the Midwest, especially Indiana, and now like running races in mountains and in other parts of the world, how the heck, how, how did you end up here? It's so cool. A lot of creativity and training making mountains on molehills. Yeah, right. And you played soccer growing up? I did, Yep. And so that's kind of where your love of running came from. Or did you hate running like I did during soccer? Because I hated. So I actually, I did start out hating running and didn't really pick up running for fun until after my last season of soccer in high school. And I think my first race was the lucky Clover for Miller.

Just kind of did that. Where's that? Is that local here? It's. Local, I don't know if it's still running, but in 2019 that was that was my first race ever and then. In 2019. OK, all right, that's fine. Now my mind is even more blown. Things kind of snowballed quickly. They. Did that? They did. Oh my gosh, Shay. OK, so from a four mile race to racing in worlds in Austria. OK, so now you're going to have to somehow tell that story. Oh gosh. Yeah, how did? OK, So what made you do your first race? So I think my first ultra I actually did before a marathon, but it was during COVID so everything was virtual.

So I ended up just doing it looped at Eagle Creek Park nearby and that was my first ultra so. Just by yourself, virtually. I mean, I had my parents and some people come help crew me. Brad Baumgartner paced me for parts of it and then I think my next ultra was the 8 Hour Dream endurance race at Butler. So those two were kind of my Segway into the whole scene and went from there. So was it just kind of a product of COVID where you're like, what the heck can I get myself into? This sounds cool because again, like thinking about going from 4 miles to 31 miles, which I'm assuming is that Was that the distance you did a 50K?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so how? So I I asked myself the same question. Like. Wow, I think it's a product of a few different things. I had read a few books and watched a few documentaries and I learned about the sport through that. And a couple family friends I knew had also been in the ultra scene, so learned about it through them and their experiences. And yeah, just during COVID, there wasn't a lot to do. So I was running a lot. And I guess the trail scene specifically was what I was super interested in. And that compared to road running, seemed like to be more of my passion where I was headed.

So I kind of leaned into that and yeah, things kind of worked out things just. Escalated and now here you are. So did you have an opportunity? So where does college fall into this for you? Yeah. So I mean, I started at University of Notre Dame fall of 2019. And so we had our first semester in person and then we're sent home for the 2nd semester of my freshman year. Oh my God. So that was when I started getting more into running. When I was at home everything was virtual so had a little bit more time on my hands and. Jeez that's so hard. I'm sorry you had to experience that as a college freshman.

Yeah, I mean, there was a interesting way to start off a college career, but it definitely opened a lot of doors for other other pursuits. And I guess in the end, I'm grateful for that experience. Yeah, How did you end up at Notre Dame? It was, it's kind of funny, it was actually a college tour I was on for my brother, and this was before I'd even started thinking about college. And that tour was actually the one that stuck with me throughout my whole application process. So I guess it kind of came full circle and was ultimately the place I decided to go after I got accepted.

Wow, so neither of your parents went to Notre Dame or did? No, but my grandpa had gone there for law school a long time ago, but neither of my parents went. Yeah, it's funny. My dad went to Notre Dame and I was a slacker in high school, so I had no chance. You know, my dad says that he's surprised I got into Miami of Ohio. So I just, it's not that I wasn't smart enough, I just didn't care. I was not, I've said this before on this podcast, I was not the best teenager. And so had I actually known how big of a difference that could have made in my life, I probably would have tried harder in high school or as my parents would say, they wouldn't have sent me to Westfield High School at the time.

So anyway, but I love Notre Dame, that campus, there's just, it's beautiful. There's just something about being on that campus, the prestige, you know, it's just absolutely incredible. And you have a degree in neuroscience? Yes, yeah. Yeah, so you're freaking. Smart. Which is how did you choose that path I've. Always been interested in like the way that our brains work and how we respond to the outside environment, and I guess I've always tied that back into running like this. Running is such a mental sport. So I think those two really come hand in hand really nicely together. Yeah, that's so true. Did you have an opportunity to be a collegiate athlete?

Did you think about that for soccer or anything or? I kind of thought about it for soccer, never for running, but ultimately decided I just wanted to have like a normal college experience. Which you definitely didn't get, but you know. Not, not in the same way, but yeah, I I never really thought about doing cross country or track or anything. I guess the distances were too short for me, clearly. Yeah, yeah. So when did you go back in person? So we went back in person my sophomore year, and then there were a couple weeks when we were on lockdown. Because that would have been the fall of 2020.

Yeah, so then we'd have like a few weeks where everything we get shut down, we'd have to stay in our dorm rooms. There are whole host of roles like wearing masks, social distancing, dining experience was totally different. Classroom settings were completely different. There's like plexiglass. I was going to ask, did they put them up around desks? In some classrooms, yeah. That would be so bizarre. But in the dining hall, for sure, there were like, you couldn't talk to your friends because you were behind glass. It was really bizarre. But I mean so there. 'D be like between us. There would be plexiglass, yeah, at A at a lunch table.

Yeah. And then the libraries, I'm assuming they did that. That's so weird. I haven't talked to somebody who is in college. With my roommates, since there wasn't a lot of events on campus, we kind of made it work and did a lot of chess, dance, and Mario Kart. Oh yeah, dorm room. So that was our saving grace, just having each other. Yeah, right. It would have kept me out of trouble or I don't know. I'm sure for some people it was so hard. I mean, not that it wasn't hard for you, but I mean, in terms of just being like, so secluded and man, well, you clearly made the most of it.

So, OK, 2019, four miles. Did you win that race or did you like, were you fast at that point? I think I won my age group but I'm not sure like what I got. Overall. I just, I was like. Oh, those are fun that. Was fun. Like I thought I did kind of well for not having run before, so I how did. You train it. Did you train at all for that? 4 Miller. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Well, I guess being like, I don't know, soccer, you run so much and just having were you still active on like at school? Would you like to go out for a jog or?

I mean, like after soccer season ended, I'd sometimes go out for like a three mile run or something. Yeah, my parents would go for a morning run. So sometimes I'd join them. And yeah, that was that was the extent of my running at that point. Yeah, well, obviously too, you have youth on your side, so being able to just go and do it. But you know the speed thing, how did you, so then how did you tackle that first virtual ultra? Did you then say, OK, I'm going to find a training plan, I'm going to, you know, build up to this? I mean, how much time did you take until you actually ran the ultra?

I think it was a few months I started Yeah, it. Just sounds so funny. Well, I started working with coach Matt Ebersoft. OK, yes. Around the spring of 2020. OK. And how did you find Matt? Through a family friend, OK sure, who had been recommended to me and I remember. Getting podcast yes. I haven't heard him yet. I remember getting on a phone call with him and I'm like I want to run a 50K and he's like what? Excuse me. Hello. You're like, yeah, I just did a four mile race and so I'm looking for something more challenging. Yes, that's basically how it went. But he was really supportive and he was like, all right, this is what you want to do, we'll get you there.

So started working with him and did that first for 1250K and was hooked. Did he come out to support you? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Is there a good loop for that at Eagle Creek, like to split up the distance or did you kind of do like one loop that's a certain distance and another one to kind of? So if you know the red loop. It's like I don't. Know it's a seven mile issue and then I tacked on a fitness trail loop which is about a mile. So that was like an 8 mile loop and I did that four times. OK, Yeah. So that worked out.

And how did you approach your fueling? Did you look to Matt to say, hey, like what what should I do for this? Or did you? Yeah. How did that work? I kind of did my own research for that. Oh, it was a lot of trial and error. Obviously my nutrition plan that first go around did not go spectacularly, but I finished it. So I think a lot of it came from books I would been reading, like Scott Jurek. 'S yeah. I don't know what it's called, but. Yeah, yeah. And then a few other books about ultra marathons. Just how do you how do you read books?

You read like the physical book or are you audio book? I usually do the physical book, but lately I've been doing more audiobooks. Sometimes when I run it's always nice. 'Cause I have a couple like hard copy books running related like that I really want to read, but I have such a hard time figuring out how to do that. It's funny as that's. An audiobook while you go for a. Run right, I do that and then that's that's how I get my my books in for sure. But just when there's not an audiobook version, I'm like, how do I do this? When will I read it?

Someday, hopefully. Wow. All right, so you did your first 50K in 2020? Yes. And then what happened next? And then I I think the next thing I had signed up for was the 8 hour. Drink. OK, That's right. You already told me that. I'm sorry. I think I have to go back and look at like my ultra sign up. Yeah. So for people who don't aren't familiar with Eight Hour Endurance, will you explain what that race is? Yeah. So it's basically a looped event. So you've 8 hours to run as many loops. I think it's a 5K loop. And there's also AI want to say a 2K or 1K loop.

And you can alternate or do as many of each loop as you want. But you try to run as many loops as you can within that eight hour time limit. And then the person who has the most miles by the end of that eight hours is the winner. Yeah, and so I've never done it. I've been curious about it because there's also an opportunity to have a team and split it up. So do you know how big your team can be? Do you have as many people as you want to trade off? I forget. I want to say it's like four to six people, but I'm not sure it's around that number.

Yeah. So it's not unlimited people. Right, I guess that would be. I mean, you could each do a loop, but that wouldn't be as, as challenging. Certainly I, I've been curious about it, especially with, you know, being able to be on a team and not tackle, just run 8 hours of running by myself. But the cool thing about that is you can, you know, I think for me being a road runner, it's such a different mindset of thinking, oh, well, you can run a loop and then you could sit down, you could eat a sandwich, you could hang out, you could nap. I mean, obviously those aren't going to get you more miles, but you can do that.

Whereas I feel like with Rd. racing, it's like, yeah, you better not better not stop at all for anything. So it's just such a different mindset for me to kind of think about doing. So you did it by yourself, obviously, did you? How did it go? I mean, I had really no specific plan going into it, just to try to have fun and get as many loops as I could and it ended up going pretty well. I mean, it definitely was hard and definitely positive split towards the end by a lot. But yeah, I ended up having a really good time. How many miles? Oh gosh, you're going to make me remember this.

I think it was, I want to say like 48. OK, all right, 40. 849 somewhere, somewhere in there. And what? What is the winner usually run? Did you win? I did. Yeah, I knew that. I feel like I'd heard that somewhere. And I was waiting for you to be like, yeah, so I won. But it's hard. You're so humble. I could already tell you won. Yes I do, I won it, but I I had a lot of help. Going on tune? So I mean, my crew was there, they were refilling my water after every loop, so. Oh my gosh. Can't take all the credit for that.

So anyone who's listening, you like see where this is going. If you don't know Shay like this is we're we're still getting into this. This is you're going places. To be able to interview you at this stage of your running career is pretty cool. I'm not worthy because you're going to go places, Shay. Mark my word. You heard it here first. I appreciate your support, your confidence in me. I have. I mean I would put money on it. So anyone want to take that bet? You do not want to bet against Shay, I can tell you that right now. So you win 8 hour and then then what?

That's a good question. I don't remember what what I did after. I think actually that was probably Fall's 50 Miller. OK. So after doing that, I'm like, OK, I did 4748 miles, I think I can do like a trail 50 miles, which is totally different than a looped Rd. course. So started working towards that and still didn't really know what I was doing. Just kind of feeling it out as you go. And I think that's kind of how you have to approach ultra, especially when you're first starting out. It's a lot of, it's a huge learning curve. So did Falls, 50 Miller, at the suggestion of Brad Baumgardner, who had paced me at that first virtual 50K.

OK, here's where I was thinking You were talking about the season, and you're not. You're talking about the waterfall. Yeah, Falls 50. Miller is a race in Kentucky. OK, Is it in the fall? I was like, wait, yes it is. So that's funny 'cause I was like, OK, so then you're in the fall and then you're going to run. And I forgot I had seen the logo of that race on your Instagram. So it's OK. So it's in Kentucky. It's fine. You're going to have to explain a lot to me, Shay. I am like, you pretend like I know nothing at all about trail running 'cause it's pretty much, that's pretty much how it is.

So I'm learning so much when I get to talk to people like you. And one of my friends, Ashley Haynes, she and Lindsay Welty, I've got a couple women who've been on this podcast. That are into the trail running but you are talking to somebody who is a road racer like through and through. So gotcha disclaimer probably should have given you that like earlier on. OK so falls 50 Miller is then what you do next. Where did you say in Kentucky it was? I forget where exactly, but it was super muddy, like the kind of mud where it just wants to suck your shoes off the whole course like.

So that was a gnarly first course to start on. So you're like, oh, this is trail running. I'm like, I, I didn't know any better. So I, I guess that's part of where ignorance is bliss. I'm like, this is just how it is. So I was like, all right, this is what we're doing. Wow. So how many pairs of shoes do you wear in that kind of situation for A50 mile hour where there's so much mud? I think I just had one pair of shoes. I guess how the heck would you get your? Shoes off. I didn't know any better so I just ran the whole thing in one pair.

One pair. So money by the end and. Did you, do you ever, did you salvage them after that? Just like, rinse them off. Yeah, I think I. Gosh, they must have been hose them down with the. Garden hose in my backyard. Wow, 50 mile. And so during this time, did you do any road races at all, like in training or just because other, you know, maybe people are doing it? You're like, oh, I could do that. I run far. I think I did the indie mini at some point in that time frame, maybe before I started doing ultras. I forget what year it was, but yeah.

So I, I did a couple, not very many at all. I know I did a my first marathon was in Michigan. It was like a Boston qualifier last chance. Oh yeah, I've heard of that race. So I did that one, but it, I mean, it never really was what was super intriguing to me to do. Yeah. I mean, they are so incredibly different, yeah. How would you describe the difference? So I think there's just a huge cultural difference between trail ultra running or just the trail community in general versus road running. Both are great in their own right, but it's just different verse. So in trail running, like if someone falls down like you're going to get picked back up by the person behind you, Someone's going to offer to share their salt pills or their snacks.

There's basically picnic tables full of food aid stations every 5:00-ish miles versus road running. Everyone's super competitive. I mean, I guess it's not the experience for everyone, but it just, it feels, it feels very different. It feels very uptight in comparison. Yeah, I mean, I'm like I said, that's what I do. But I could see, I can see it like when I, when I envision trail running. Yeah, it is more like what you've described. The food is what really gets me. I'm like, OK, I could do, I could do an ultra just for the food. Yeah. I mean, I think road running's more about people care more about the time versus in trail running people care more about the experience.

That might be a better way to put it. Yeah, which again, to me is like, so hard to wrap my head around. Not because I don't want to go enjoy the experience. I've been better at that recently with my running in particular. But yeah, I'm always like, you know, yeah, you're on your watch and you're like, OK, how many seconds do I need to run? The smile? Yeah, it's it is a different mindset. What is your favorite thing to eat during an ultra marathon? Like real food. Or yeah, all the all the things we'll need to discuss both. OK, if we're talking about real food, sometimes I'll do like bean, tiny bean, tortilla roll.

Ups like burritos, like black beans or Pinto beans. Refried beans. OK. So like those are Yeah, OK, refried. Got it. And. Anything else on that? Just beans? Just beans and tortilla. Just beans and tortilla, OK? Sometimes the Super sweet stuff can stop going down too well in the later stages of races, so you want something savory. OK, And then that and Pickles. Pickles. Pickles are incredible. I didn't know that pickle juice wasn't pickle juice like the branded pickle juice. That blew my mind. I've never used like the little bottles. Right, that's what I was thinking. I usually just eat the actual or drink the actual brine.

Yeah, because the salt. Yeah, so good. So good. Yeah, yeah, I've never. I've done salt like the capsules but never. I will be both. OK. And what other kinds of foods like real foods? In the past I've done Mashed potato pouches. So basically what putting mashed potatoes in I was. Like do you sell that? Those reusable baby food pouches, those are great for ultras because you can put the mashed potatoes or let's say oatmeal in those and they're super easy to eat on the go. So I've done that and I've just thrown those in my running vest. And so that's something that's worked well for me in the past.

Yeah, I'm just like picturing people like, taking like, a spoonful of mashed potatoes and like, putting in a zip lock and like, attempting to, like, squeeze it out. Yeah. How nice that now they have the containers to make it so easy. Mashed potatoes. I mean. Weird, some 8. Stations will have quesadillas or grilled cheese or even hamburgers, but I'm vegan so I don't usually have her taking that. Yeah, you and and Larry's vegan, isn't he? Yeah, he is. Yeah. So side note. Hello, Larry. I know he listens to this, but Larry, Larry works for Fleet Feet and that's How I Met Larry. But he was early in this podcast.

Like I should know that off the top of my head, but he's he was before my 10th episode. I know that. So maybe he was eight or nine somewhere around there. But yeah, Larry's vegan as well. I remembered. What does that entail? Like for running. No, just in general. No animal products. No animal. Products, eggs, cheese and no meat. Which makes I would imagine fueling yourself obviously a unique challenge than trying to figure out OK, what what can I have? And you are now a how do you say it knock athlete snack, snack, snack, snack. So you they are obviously than vegan products. That seems like something that's probably more common now in the Ultra scene.

Is that fair? Yeah, I mean, and what I love about them is they're very sustainable, sustainability focused. So they use upcycled ingredients, like their packaging is sustainable. They do a lot of planting of trees and reforestation work and just overall like they're trying to be one of the more sustainable run fuel brands out there. And that's a big part of the reason why I became vegan in the 1st place, so. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that piece of it because I did, I read that somewhere that you are, yeah, really passionate also about sustainability. How did how did that become something that you are interested in and passionate about?

I think it was also a byproduct of trail running, just wanting to preserve these natural places that we call our playgrounds and wanting to preserve them for future generations to enjoy as well. And that really struck a chord with me, and I want other people to be able to enjoy the same things I'm able to enjoy right now. Yeah, wow. I just feel like that's, I don't know, we could use more of that mindset. And I feel like especially in Indiana, it's got to be hard for you being in this this area of the country. It's very flat here. Yes, yes, it's so flat. Let's talk about.

Let's talk about that. So how do you get creative in your training and yeah, do hill work or even prepare yourself for elevation? So a good example of how I've done this in the past is probably looking at how I trained for worlds my senior year of college. And this was my last semester in school and I was in South Bend, IN which is pancake flat. And so in my training I would run this like .15 mile hill hill in quotation marks. It was just this tiny little incline. And I would just do that, like, over and over and over again. And I would also incorporate uphill treadmill workouts, but treadmills don't go up to the incline that usually experience out in the wild.

Yeah. So I did what I could and did strength training, too. And you just got to put your head down and do the work and hope it pays off. Cross your fingers. Yeah, that's how I for New York, I ran New York in 2018. Thankfully I had Peloton, they do, they have classes where they incorporate incline and so I use that as like a hope that I'm like, well, hopefully this helps get me ready enough. Like obviously that's bridges of New York City are slightly different than running in mountains. But you know, that's how I can relate because it is hard to find hills out here.

I know a lot of people do hill work over at Eagle Creek as well. And I've I've done that in the past too. Yeah, Yeah, man. OK. So then senior year you did world and that's just crazy to me. In that amount of time, you've had so much success in terms of just tackling these distances. So if we get back on track, I feel like I've gone like all over the place. But I just have so many questions for you, Shay, because so you then tackle a fall 50 Miller, which is in the fall, but it's also it's the fall 50 mile like a waterfall falls in Kentucky.

So you tackle that and then you're like, OK, I did 50 miles, now I could do 100 miles. Is that kind of just you're like, OK, what's the next distance? The next distance was 100. KK, right, Which is 62. Oh. Two. 6220, My gosh. So that was at Black Canyon, 100K in Arizona, and so that was my first 100K distance. First year was a learning experience. And was that did they have, was it like elevation there? Yeah, it's got about, I want to say 76 or 7000 feet of climbing, but a little bit more descent. So it's net downhill. Right, actually. Most of the climbing comes in the back end of the race since it's point to point.

Yeah, OK. Which was still more than I had been able to train for in Indiana at that point. I'm pretty sure I got like hip Bursitis at some point in that race and I ended up walking. What is? It's like an inflamed. Your Bursa is like a sack of that. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. It got inflamed and I ended up walking like the last 10 miles of that race. But I finished and God, that had to be hard. Yeah. So I'm like, all right, I gotta gotta do this one again next year, get some redemption. Right. Yeah. How did they So after you finished that race, how do they treat hippositis?

She's like, it just rests. Oh, I hate that one. That's the treatment. Don't you just want to be like so injected and it goes away like? Yeah, well, that was the next step if it wasn't going. To go away, but rest helped. Oh man. So 62.2 Black Canyon. I don't know anything about that race. So in Arizona point to point like how it's not one you have to qualify for anything you just sign up for. Is that true? OK. And about how many runners are there? Oh gosh, I feel like it's grown every year since that first year that I did it. I think now it's I think last year or this year it was around 1200 runners, but that might have been across a couple distances.

So there's also A60K the following day. OK. But it's still I was. Trying to think of. I was trying to do the math using 10K. What's 60K then? That's like 30. Seven OK, yeah, OK so like half almost just a little more than half. Yeah, that's tricky when you start getting and it's like not a 50K, it's a 60K and then you're like OK, I can't with this math. OK, wow, your first hundred Ki think maybe that's I can't remember the years. I was trying to think of when your dad first, like I first knew that you were doing crazy distances. I think that was still but.

That was still probably before because it maybe not. It would have been 21. 21. Yeah, OK. Yeah, it could have been then because I started my business at 21 in January. What time of year is Black Canyon? It's in February. February, yeah, OK, that's probably too early anyway. So is it hot out there then in February? Yeah, the temp swings are huge. Like it's can start in the 30s in the morning before the sun's come out, and then by the time you're in the middle of the race in the desert, it can be like 80 or 90° depending on the year. So people are definitely dunking their heads in ice, getting sponge down, wearing ice bandanas, running out of water between aid stations.

Yeah. So do you have for most ultras you have your own crew you bring with you, is that correct? Yes, yeah. But then the race also supplies aid. Yes. So your crew typically is only allowed at a few spots along the course and at Black Canyon, not the first year because that was still like COVID era. They were only allowed at one spot, but usually they're allowed at three spots. And you can see your crew at these bigger aid stations and they'll resupply you with your specific. Choice and. Fuel. But then there are aid stations every like 5 to 10 miles that will have a variety of aid station fare like pretzels or Pickles or M and Ms.

Or PB and JS and then water and a calorie rich drink. OK, yeah, it it's so interesting because I have known people in Rd. races to like have their spectator at a certain spot to like provide them with their drink or whatever. It gets a lot more important as the race gets. Longer as you have a longer race you like, really need and it's so nice that you can have somebody with what you want and need. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And just seeing a friendly face, a familiar face out there, can do wonders for your attitude and your mood if you're in a low point during your.

Race. Yeah. And in ultras, again, a difference. Typically you're not, don't see people with their headphones in, right? Like listening to music. Not typically. You're, you're enjoying nature and you're out there. I want to talk to you about mindset, especially with your degree in neuroscience because yeah, how how do you tackle that in a race? Are there certain, And this is like already asking you one of the questions I'll ask you later, but like certain things you say to yourself, like mantras or tricks that you use. Yeah. So I like to think that perception becomes reality. So how you are perceiving your current situation is how you will end up actually experiencing it.

So if you are like, oh, I'm having the worst day, I'm feeling really bad. Like everything's going wrong. Like that's going to become your reality. You're not going to be able to get out of that hole that you're digging yourself into. Versus if you try to keep it more positive out like, like, oh, I'm just in a low. I'm going to feel better in a few miles. More than often more than not, you're going to turn around and feel better down the road. And so it never, always gets worse, never always gets worse. Never always gets. Worse, Yeah. So basically, you can be in a really low point and everything sucks, but you know that it's not going to keep getting worse.

Like at some point you're going to come out of this valley that you're in. Yeah, because you're still alive. So yeah, you just need a few extra calories, maybe some water. Yeah, something. Give yourself some salt pills and keep problem solving. That's so hard to do. So how do you did you kind of have that from day one just with your studies at school, you just kind of started applying that to running? Yeah, I mean, it was something that I just kind of worked out as I went with running and connecting the dots between my studies at college and yeah, I mean, I just started applying some of those tools during my races and it seemed to really help.

Yeah, you're so wise, man. I wish I would have had this knowledge like when I first started running just, I mean, and I think running is probably 80% mental, yeah, maybe more. What do you think? I I think it's definitely at least 80% if not more, because if you go into these races, you can't think about the race and its entirety. Yes, you. Have to chunk it and so only think about the mile that you're in, or to the next 8 station, and then the 8 station after that, and then the 8 station after that and before you know it you'll be crossing the finish line.

Yeah, right. Like I can run a mile 50 times, but running 50 miles seems impossible. Yeah, it can get overwhelming if you start to think about it and its entirety so. Yeah, I can imagine that. Especially like 100 miles. Yeah. How to break it down? Yeah, my favorite mantra is run the mile you're in. Yes, that's a good. 1. Just always like, OK, yeah, just think about this mile and then you can think about the next one, but not until you're there. Oh, man, Yeah, that's really. That's really smart. When you ran that last chance BQ, did you did you qualify for Boston? I did.

And I saw that you've run Boston. I have. So what year did you run Boston? Oh gosh, that was, I think that was 20. That was 2023 I think. Which is last year, yeah, it's pretty sure we're like, wait, what year is it? I had run Lake Sonoma 50 Miller. OK. And that was my qualifying race for for worlds making Team USA, and that was the week prior to Boston. Jeez sorry I'm not like laughing, I'm just my brain is like. OK, so yeah, I ended up going from California, turning it around and then flying to Boston. You flew to Boston? Wow, from California. Well, I I think I stopped in Indiana for a few days.

Get get what you need, get what I needed and then go reset. Reset. And then take a nap. Then go to Boston. Wow, it was kind. Of a silly race calendar, but. Yeah, So anybody who's listened, listened to this, we've had, you know, some Rd. racers who have gone and done like when the world majors were kind of all back-to-back because of COVID, where it was like, I forget the orders, Chicago or Berlin, Chicago, London, whatever. I had a guest on Jennifer Connor. She did them all like back-to-back, right. And you're like, Oh my gosh, marathons back-to-back, which is incredible, absolutely incredible. But then I'm like, OK, you ran 50 miles and then you did.

And then you did the like pinnacle race of Rd. racing. It's like cherry on top. So cool. How is the Lake Sonoma race? It's what they call relentless. That's like the tagline death by 1000 cuts because it is super hilly. There's like no flat running like you're either going up or you're going down and so that there's no like singular super, super long climb like there is in some races, but it catches up to you. It's beautiful. It's and like wine country. Yeah, I was going to guess with Sonoma Lake Valley. Is it near a lake? Do you run around a lake? You can, yeah.

You can see the lake at some point. You don't run around it because it's a point to point, OK. I mean sorry an out and back. Out and back. Wow. OK, so then tell me about how you how worlds came into view for you. Like on your radar. Yes, somebody so new to the sport too. I actually had been talking to some of the USATF representatives while I was there watching the trail marathon that occurred the day prior that Friday, the 50 Miller was on Saturday. And so I, I just been talking to them and they're like, so. You didn't know at the rate like when you went to like Sonoma 50, you're not like, this is me going to qualify for worlds.

No, not at all. Like I was still, I feel like I was still, I'm still pretty new in this sport. So I, I didn't really like know how all of that worked and that wasn't on my radar at all. So you're talking to them I'm. Talking to them and they're like, oh, like you should like you should think about this. I'm like, oh, maybe because. They're probably just chatting up. You're like, yeah, you know, I've done this, this, this and this over the last couple years. They're like, OK, you should totally think about this. And So what did they tell you about the race like and qualifier?

I'm assuming you need like a certain time to complete that distance in order to qualify for Worlds. Yeah, so you've to what? It's interesting the way it works. If I am not mistaken, if I don't remember quite correctly, I'm pretty sure you have to finish within a certain time frame from the person who gets first. Oh, OK. To be in contention. And then the top, I forget the number of the top people that get in, but then outside of that, it's an application and you can get selected from the application pool. So I got, I want to say 6th or 7th at that race, but I was within that qualifying window and they told me to submit my application to get on Team USA and I did, and I was ultimately selected.

Whoa. OK. So super grateful for that opportunity. So because I could imagine like they tell you how this works the day before you're going to run this 50 Miller. So did you, how did you think about that during your race then? Because that's kind of like, Oh, I that wasn't on my radar and now I now I want to do that. Or did you just say, oh, that's cool, I'm just going to, I'm going to run my race. Basically just run my own race and see what happened. If I got it, great, If I didn't, I wasn't expecting anything. You had no idea that it was the other.

Thing so I actually like from the gun like my legs felt flat at that race. So I did not feel good. It was a race of attrition. But yeah, I just you just keep putting 1 foot in front of the other. Wow. And then, OK, so what's the time frame of submitting your application and finding out? And then how do you find out? I got an e-mail a few weeks later when I was back at school and I think I was like going to the grocery store or something and like saw the e-mail and called my mom. Yeah, I'm like, what do you? Do yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, you start doing, filling out some paperwork, doing some of the USATF online safe sport stuff, and they send you a big suitcase full of Team USA gear and. Is it like a Team USA? Is it like a Team USA suitcase? Yes. Yeah, there's like a Nike. Yeah, there are Nike suitcases and. Just full of stuff. Full of stuff. It was like Christmas. You're like. Like, I don't. Yeah, it was. Yeah, I don't. I don't have words for. It wow. Like it didn't feel quite real at that time. Yeah, 'cause I'm like. What? Like I don't, this is not me. Like I don't deserve to be on this team.

I'm just like 21 year 2221 year old. Who likes to run? Yeah, Team USA. Yeah, it was definitely a surreal experience, especially knowing that a lot of my mentors or people I look up to in the sport, who I follow on Instagram or social media, we're going to be on the team and they've been in the sport for like 10-15 years. So yeah, So what do you OK, so you find out, you make it call your mom. What did your mom say? She started crying. Yeah. And then, yeah, I guess from there we started looking at flights, which they cover. They end up compensating you for after you buy tickets to Austria.

So you buy like, OK, cool, I'll have a first class ticket for me and my mom and yeah. Yeah, they. Within it was economy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. So which city in Austria? Innsbruck. Yeah. I'm trying to remember if I have been there. Innsbruck and then well, it's point to point. So it started in Dubai? OK. I don't know if that is Innsbruck. OK quick side note question, how do you prefer a race out and back loops point to point? What's your favorite? I I don't really have a a favorite. They all have their own charm out and back. You get to see people and cheer them on and give them high fives as.

You're going back and forth. Point to point, you get a new course the whole way, so see new landscapes. Don't get as bored. Maybe. Yeah. And then looped courses, same thing. Those can maybe be a little bit harder for crews to access certain points of the race, depending on its remoteness. But yeah, also super cool. Yeah, OK. I was just thinking about it because as I think about just when I plan a run, like going on a run today, OK, I got to run 4 miles, like I have a four mile loop that I could do. I have an out and back I can do Obviously I don't do point to points when I'm like, you know, unless it's like AI don't know training run and I have the ability to have somebody come get me at the end.

I actually would run to my parents house from Broad Ripple when I was marathon training because it'd be like exactly like 13 miles. So I knew if I needed more distance, I could get creative on my way there and then they would just Take Me Home. So, so I it's funny, I do appreciate all of them for different things. I'm I'm definitely I'm an out and back. I think is probably my favorite because of the mentality of like I've done this before, although with elevation in mind, obviously that would be different. But if it's a flat out and back, it's kind of like, OK, I've already seen all this, so that's interesting.

OK, so back to worlds. Did you do between? So you did Lake Sonoma flew to Boston. Let's talk about Boston for a second, though. For all the like Rd. runners, I, I think there's trail runners who listen to this, but certainly not like trail runner, trail runners. I shouldn't have said that. I don't mean that Ashley, you are a trail runner, but. It was cool. It was a cool experience. Cause Boston people are like for me, that's like the dream at the moment for me is I've been working on my speed. So I'm like, OK, this is the, you know, this is my golden ticket is like to get, I want to qualify for Boston.

So yeah, the experience for you is cool. How? Yeah. How'd it go? It was definitely different than any marathon I'd done. I mean, I'd only done like I think 2 before and it was a lot of fun. It was a different kind of fun. Heartbreak Hill wasn't. I didn't actually realize I was on Heartbreak Hill until like I saw this sign at the top. So funny but. People who were realistic, they were like, Oh my God, but you're like, no, I run up mountains. So it didn't was no big deal. Yeah. But it was, it was nice to have a lot of people cheering for a change cause a lot of times in trail races you're just out there on your own for hours on end.

Yeah, I mean, it was, Yeah, it was a different type of fun, but I enjoyed it, had a good time, had no expectations going into it, but ended up. Yeah. And can you use ultras? Can you qualify for Boston within an ultra marathon? Probably not. I don't think yeah. Probably not, because it's not a beat like they have to go through the certification. Never mind, dumb question. OK, and what, what were the other two marathons you've done? You've done caramel correct and monumental. And you didn't monumental and then the BQ. The last chance speech. Again. OK. And then? I paced Monumental Marathon a year, one year I think.

OK, I. Think that was 2022. Oh, the wind year. Yes, the windy year, that is correct. That is the right year. I remember because that's the only time I've done the full. My arm was sore after that day from holding up the flag. Like trying to hold it. Yeah, that's funny. I wouldn't have thought about that challenge. Yeah. OK, so so let's talk about the experience in Austria. It's kind of just still feel like dreamlike, 'cause I'm just envisioning you've got this suitcase, you've got your uniform. How did you interact with the team leading up to being there? Were there opportunities to meet before you actually go to Worlds?

Or is it all kind of just virtual up until that point? Yeah, so they basically put us all in a group chat together. Text chat or something else? I think it was WhatsApp. WhatsApp. And so we're all in this group chat together, and I'm like going through the names in the group chat just like, and hyperventilating a little bit. So I don't know if you know Jim Walmsley, OK. I feel like I've heard that name maybe, but I'm not good at Yeah. Nope. He's one of the the top trail athletes, ultra marathoners in the world and he was on that chat. He didn't end up ultimately competing at Worlds because he got injured.

But I'm like, I have his number. I have his e-mail address now. Yeah, a little fan girl moment. That's OK. That's so cool. Yeah, but I mean, unless you were living nearby to one of these people, we didn't meet beforehand. We just met for the first time in Austria after landing. Wow, so I'm assuming you all stay at the same hotel? Yeah, yeah. So they split us up into rooms. Did you have did you have a roommate? Yes, yeah, we all had roommates. So there was Alison Baca, Sarah Keys, and then you have people like Racing Grayson, Grayson Montel, Grayson Murphy. Wow, serious butchering. Yeah.

It's fine, yeah. You. I don't know, you know everyone. Yeah. I was rooming with Emily Schmidt. OK, so you met her first time. You get there. Where's she from? She had actually been staying in France. Oh, OK, I. Believe but she's AUS citizen. OK, and then tell people what worlds like what is what's the full name like worlds for tractor. I forget what the. Yeah, the world, Mountain and trail. Mountain and trail running championships. OK so I recently had a guy on Ferrell but he did them in Thailand I think. I don't know. See, I know nothing about this world. Yeah. So the Thailand one, usually they're supposed to world is supposed to happen every two years.

But since COVID occurred, they postponed it and so it ended up falling I think fall of 2022. So they ended up being very close together, even though they're usually supposed to be two years apart. That's why I was like a little confused. So that's the same event, it just they were different locations and because of COVID they were closer together. Got it. So the next one is next year in 2025 in Spain. OK, cool. So, OK, jeez, this is just so crazy. So you get there, you meet and then what is the event or events that occur at at this event? It felt very similar to the Olympics, like there is the opening ceremony, everyone's dressed in their country's kit and uniform, everyone has their country's flag and they paraded, paraded us in and introduced each nation on stage.

It was like it was really, it was mind boggling. Did you cry? Not at that point. I feel like I could cry just thinking about it. Yeah, it was. It was just a surreal experience. Yeah, you're. Just meeting people from all over the world. How many athletes per team? Ish. So you can have up to six. Actually, it depends on the distance for the Long Trail team, which was the 87 kilometer race. Which was the map on that? It's like 5455. It was supposed to be shorter, but then they had to reroute the course due to weather and snowpack at the top of the mountains.

OK. But backtracking Subway what was the? Question the events, OK and the number of the number of. Athletes. Yeah, you can have six athletes, six women, six men per for the Long Trail team per nation. OK, but only the top 4 score. OK. So kind of like a cross country scoring. OK, which I also know know nothing about the people. Listening Will. Yeah, Yeah. So it's like that, but a lot of nations didn't bring 6 just based on. What they have like the level? Or the budget they have to travel and accommodations and. Stuff got you. OK. And then though and there are also. Is there also a short distance then?

Yeah. So there was the long trail distance, which was like the 54 mile or and then there was the up down classic, which scary I think was I want to say like 8 to 12 miles where you just go up and down a mountain like once. And then? There's the vertical kilometer, which is. You just run straight. Up and you finish at the top. And then there's the short trail, which was about a marathon distance. Super short. Yeah, they called it short. Trail. So you're like the yeah, the short trail. Wow. OK. So there were a few different events and they were spaced throughout the week.

The Long Trail was one of the last events. Oh man, was that why I got? Waiting. I would just wait and get to watch all the other events and the athletes be done and. That actually would help fuel the excitement. Exactly. It's hard to wait, but also like, then you just get, you're like, hey, like, let me run. I'm ready. To go. Let me run. Wow. OK, how cool. And then how did the USA, how did you guys finish? So men actually got, I want to say second or third. They had an incredible finish where like 5th, 6th and 7th were all US. Like they came in seconds.

After one other like they. Came in as a pack and it was I wasn't there to which witness it because I was still out on the mountain, but I saw videos afterwards and it was pretty spectacular. And then women's got 4th overall. OK, wow. And how many? How many nations? I want to say there's like 62. Wow. That is so cool. So will you do it again? Will you get to do it again? If I qualify, I would love to do it again. When you qualify, sure. Come on, you know it. Well, I mean, I want to try that's. A goal for sure. OK, So what did you already tell me what year it'll be next?

You said 2525 because it was 23. Got it. OK, So it'll be next year. So what race will you, will you attempt that or just it's your race calendar? So you're like, well, if I qualify, cool. The qualifying races for World haven't been released yet, so we don't know which one is going to be the qualifier as of now, so that'll be a. TBD. TBD. Yes. OK. How many are qualifying races? Will there be like a handful probably, or less than that, like a couple? I mean, so there's one for every race distance, OK. So one for the long trail, one for the short trail, one for the VK, and then they're similar to their respective distances and length.

Wow, cool. OK, so we've talked about what else? Anything else you want to share from World? I feel like you can do an episode entirely on that experience, but it's just like, we don't have time to do that. But like any other stories about like, meeting these athletes that you, you know, have admired and look up to, that you want to share? I mean, I would, I feel like it was very strung out for a long time. I did run with someone from Brazil and then someone from Argentina for a while and then a woman from Spain and we shared some miles together. And, but it was the course was definitely the hardest thing I've ever done.

I would say it was not necessarily a runnable course, and a lot of the Team USA athletes would agree. They're like, this is the hardest course that I've ever been on. Did you do they know that leading in like looking at the the elevation chart like and telling you like, hey, this is going to be harder than we? It was 22,000 feet of climbing. That sounds like a lot. She felt like a lot. Oh my gosh, 'cause I just think of a fourteener in car. I'm like trying to like for as somebody who doesn't really know when I look at an elevation chart, really what that means.

I'm trying to envision like what that means. So for many of the climbs, I'd be starting out at the bottom and I'd feel like I'd been climbing for a long time, and then I'd look up and I'd see these tiny, tiny specks way above me and I'm like, oh, that's another runner. I still have to go all the way up there and I'm using my poles and you're just like dragging yourself up the mountain. Definitely. That's right, you use poles. Races. Did you have to have what are they called the crampon shoes like for the snowpack or do they completely reroute around that like you said?

There was still some sections, short sections of snowpack that we had to go through where I was like post holing up to my knees, but they were short stretches. So say that again post holing. Yeah. So you've to like, you're just walking through snowpack basically. Up to your knees, Yes. OK. Yeah. I mean, I'm just like, I can't, I can't picture that over. And you're running over 50 miles total. This is just, I can't, Shay. I can't. I don't understand. And there there was like a a 15 hour cut off time and I was like going into it, most of Team USA was worried like, wow, that's that's going to be tight for 22,000 feet of climbing.

That's over 50 miles. That's significant for. A race score and like you said, all these people who have been in the sport for, you know, years and years are worried. So I'm hearing this. I'm like, I'm like, OK, I'm a little nervous now, but it it went fine. And you made the cut off. I did. I finished 32nd or 33rd. I was just happy to have finished because there was a 51% DNF rate, so 51% of the field, over half of people didn't finish. Yeah, and did I see you ate a whole pretzel during the? Race. Yeah, they had these like German salted pretzels, like those soft.

Pretzels, yes, I love. It so so good. They should. Over the course of the race I would eat chunks at aid stations. Yeah, it's like dear marathon people, monumental people like let's, let's do soft pretzels, please, at the finish or at, yeah, at an aid station. I remember running New York. Like I said, I was, I don't know, halfway and all I wanted was a pretzel, didn't I? I didn't care if it was like a delicious sauce. I just wanted salt really is what my body was wanting. So I managed to text my friends who were spectating and all that I could manage was to say pretzel.

And I get to them. It's like mile 16. It's like a few miles later and I'm like, do you have the pretzels? And they were like, we didn't know. We didn't know what you wanted. And I was like, it said pretzel. Like what? What else did you think? It's literally like the only thing I could, you know, you get so tired. Like, there's even getting my phone out was like a marathon at that point. And they didn't know what I meant. But thank God at some point, not too much later, somebody had pretzels somewhere. And I was like, thank you. And now I always love to tell the story because I it's the only time I get to.

I spectated the following year and I brought a bag of pretzels and I made a sign that had a picture of a pretzel and I put pretzels. And then do you know Matt James who he is? I've heard. Of him yet. So he was on the Bachelor, and now he's a runner, like, and he was, but he's become more like he's a Lou. I'm an ambassador. Anyway, he took pretzels from my bag. So I was like, yeah. And Tyler Cameron, who are both Bachelor people. Anyway, that's all I have. So you ate a whole pretzel during worlds. That's great. Yep, I mean a lot of other stuff too, but.

Yeah, but still I'm picturing that. Just makes me smile. Like thinking about you holding a gigant. Those pretzels are humongous. So they had them cut up. OK, so each a station you just like, you just grab chunk and go. So I'd just be holding these bits of pretzels running downhill as I was eating. But it helped settle my stomach because there was some puking and rallying during that race. Of course there is. Yeah. That was my house name in college. Booten Rally, that's what they called it. And I didn't even know what that meant when we moved in until, you know, that until I moved in, I was like, OK, but never have I ever puked and kept drinking.

But puking and continuing running, OK, that is probably. Is that a common thing for you? Like in ultra running in general? Yeah, I mean better recently. I hate. Usually, yeah, usually it takes tweaking to your nutrition plan, but I it's probably the combination of the altitude and just. Yeah, altitude. Yeah. Do you do anything special for that? I I hydrate. Yeah, hope for the best. I have trouble. I think it's like as I've gotten older, I think my body is different when I'm at altitude because I used to not have a problem and now like I got sick last time I went to Colorado and I was like, what is this?

I had no idea that I would. So that's thank goodness. I'm sure a lot of athletes experience issues with that, especially with the like the like the speed at which you are climbing. And I would say just nausea and GI issues in general for ultras is pretty common, right? Because like, as you're running that long, you have to make sure you're on top of nutrition. But sometimes it's hard to keep up, especially towards the end of races or if it's like super hot blood's being diverted away from the stomach. So you start getting problems. How many or how far away typically are aid stations? Or were they at worlds like every 10 miles?

Is it shorter than that? Yeah. So I think they were around 10 miles apart. There were a couple longer stretches, a couple shorter stretches, but 10 miles on road is very different from 10 miles. On those I mean, just thinking about hiking 10 miles there. Would be hours in between these stations. Like I think the longest stretch between 8 stations I went was four hours. That's so long, and I'm sure you go that long without seeing people, or in this case, are there enough? Runners like, you'll see you'll bump into other people or you're you'll, you're going to leapfrog other people who may be stronger on climbs, but you're better on descent.

Yeah, back and forth like. That Wow. Well, congratulations for qualifying, for going, for finishing. Yeah, over half the people didn't finish. Yeah. It was crazy. That's crazy. So let's this is a good opportunity to talk about not finishing a race. Yes, because that's happened to you and you've also not started a race. Yes. Talk about those experiences and how you think about that. So I like to think that failing is a good stepping stone towards future success and. I like that. So the first time I attempted 100 miles at IT 100, I ended up DNF ING at mile 91 and. It's so painful. It was very painful.

In the moment I was hypothermic. I was just, yeah, no good things. What year was that? I want to say that was 2021. OK. But then without that experience, without everything that I learned during that race in mental and physical regards, there was no way that I could have performed as well as I did in 2022. So I think it's just the welcoming, the fear of failing but then continuing to show up and try again is what's important. Hell yeah, 91, yeah, right. It's like, of course then you think, yeah, 9 miles in the grand scheme of things. How did that do you remember the conversation happening?

Was it you that decided? Were you talking to your you're like mom, your crew like. Yeah. So I mean, I I had not been able to keep anything down for at least 20 or 30 miles prior to that. And I had made the working mistake of not bringing another layer as I went into the night section of the race. So as temps dropped and your body's already tired, your temperature regulation is gone haywire. Like that's pretty common towards longer efforts. So I couldn't keep myself warm. So throwing up hypothermic, they decided to pull the plug on me, even though I probably would have kept going.

But they made the right call, yeah. And they they is your crew. Yeah, my crew, OK. Can a race? Can they tell you like, hey, we need you to stop? Yeah, yeah. So medical can or anyone who is part of race organization can. Pull you out of the course. Yeah, be like, tell you you can't continue, Yeah. They probably have to do that a lot. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely cause ultra runners. They'll just keep going. You're like. No, I'm. I'm alive. I'm going to keep running. Whoa. And then there was another one. You fell right. Yeah, so or. Twisted your ankle or what happened there? So there's a couple different scenarios.

I DNF to have lean 100 October of 2023 and that was because I had gotten a tear in my meniscus during the race. So the race course is a looped course and it was open for hikers and also mountain bikers. So there is at one point when I was going downhill and this biker like flew past me, totally caught me off guard. I caught a toe, went down, landed on my knee and it just was not quite the same. So ended up pulling from that one around like mile 45. So, I mean, you go into these races and you know that anything can and will happen, and that's just something that you have to be OK with as you line up at the start line is embracing the possibility of failing.

Yeah, yeah. Which again, is something like, I feel like comparing it to Rd. racing, that is the same, like a lot can happen during a marathon, during a half marathon, during a 5K, for God's sakes. But yeah, I'm like, well, you don't have mountain bikes and rocks and mountains, but you have potholes and who knows what else. But yeah, I man, did that mountain biker know that you fell. I don't think so, 'cause they were gone before I even got up. Yeah, but I mean, I don't. What do you do? I mean, I I don't blame them. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. You're just like, OK, things happen.

Yeah. Ouch. Oh, gosh. Wow. So, oh, oh, I wanted to ask you about. I wanted to ask you about your, the golden tattoos on your face. And I've seen pictures of. What is that? Where can I buy it? I I I've just gotten off them off Amazon. I actually started doing that after I was introduced to them by Sarah Keys at Worlds, so she was one of my team mates there and she had brought some and was sharing them amongst the girls there. So started that tradition with her and kind of kept it going forward because it reminds me that races are more of a celebration of all the work that you've put in.

Yeah, yes, like all the work is. Done races are just where you. Get to celebration. Yep. Yep, yes. So it's kind of a outward, physical reminder of the party. I love that so much. OK, so the first time I wore glitter, I am. I was inspired by Alexi Pappas. Oh, yeah, she does. I mean, the glitter, you're just like, OK, OK, I want to wear some glitter on my face. OK. And so at the Indy Mini this year, I pushed for Ainsley's Angels, and they're pink, right? They're all about pink. So I'm like, OK, I'm going to buy some pink face glitter. We got like six of these containers.

And so I'm just like, anybody want glitter? Like, And so we got to put it on our Angel, the girl that, you know, we pushed and then like other people that wanted it. And it was, I was so worried though that it was going to get in my eyes. Like I was really worried about that. And so when I've seen the pictures of your stars that like beautiful gold stars, like those aren't going to get in your eyes because it's the tattoo, which I also just love, like temporary tattoos, like tattoos in general. Yeah. So I would search, what would I search for on Amazon?

Do you think like gold eye tattoo girl, gold face facial, gold stars. I can send you a link. OK, thanks. And I'll put it in the show notes that. Everybody can buy them. Well, I'm thinking now like that should be in a bouquet, like what a cool thing to like. I do think it's so much fun to, yes, they come to do that sheets and then you just cut out. Like the shape, the shape and just put it on, Yeah. Yes, OK, I'm into it. I'm so excited about that. Thank you. I'm glad I didn't forget to ask because I would have been so sad.

Well, I would have been just DM ING you OK. I also really like how you said like accumulating miles for smiles ties really well into that. Where did you where did that start? I just have always wanted running to stem from a. Place of joy. So just, I mean, if, if you don't enjoy it, what's the point? Yeah, yeah. If you don't enjoy it, what is the point? So true. Well, like my journey with running started as a punishment really to myself, like to like offset the decisions I was making in college to like drink a bunch of beer and eat a lot of pizza.

And so my relationship with running wasn't founded in joy. It was rather started with punishing myself. And so over the years I've had to really work on like having it be more of a celebration and enjoy. And I, I've now I'm like, yeah, I'm in that place where I'm like, yes, I love this so much now. It's almost like you might love it too much. I don't know. Like you and I talked about we're like, Yep, this is our addiction. We, this is what we are choosing. And wow. OK, so I want to revisit the knack conversation before because I want to talk to you a little bit.

And I know I'm, I'm just going to talk to you all day. I want to revisit like sponsorship type stuff because it's only a matter of time until you're a sponsored pro athlete, right? I hope so. Yes, it's. Only a matter of. Time. It's like, Brooks, what are you doing? Hiring freeze get out of here. So, OK, so tell me how your partnership with NAC came about. And then maybe a little bit, let's go back to just kind of reiterating their products because I am intrigued by the the Maple one in particular. But how did that? How did you end up working with them? So actually I got Adm.

On Instagram from an agent Lauren Williams shout out Hey Lauren. She works for the Centara Group, which is. Based out of the UK. And they're an athlete manager, management group. So started working with her as my agent and she kind of connected me with NAC, who shares a lot of the same values I do as a runner and as an athlete. Are they based out of the UK NAC? No. So they actually are based out of. Canada or they were founded in Canada. So I connected with them and worked out an agreement and I'm super psyched to be able to support their products and use their products in my races now because I mean, I haven't bonked since I started switched over to their stuff.

Well, that's quite the test of it, Yeah. And it's. Not the kind of stuff that. Leaves like a super sugary taste in your mouth like sometimes goose or gels can. So anyway, I really loved working with them. I love what they stand for in terms of their sustainability and just focus on preserving our planet and our playgrounds. You mentioned the tree thing earlier and I saw. That on their website, they'll plant a tree for every order, every order. If I order on the feed, do they plan a tree? I got to find out because that's where I order a lot of my stuff now is on the feed.

Yeah, I could ask. OK, we got to figure that out because I want. To if not. I'll just order directly on the website because I want to try the salted Maple because I've been on a Maple syrup kick. However, to your point, like it's so syrup is like the sweetest thing you can eat. And so I love the idea of having like the saltiness to go with it. But both Untapped and Anderson's, the two brands that I've hadn't tried don't have a salted. They have salted citrus and salted Raspberry Untapped us, but no plain. I'm like, just give me some plain salted Maple. That's that's now kind of what I'm after.

So I'm excited to try. Yeah. So I would describe it as like a. Thin brownie batter texture OK and sweet but not overly sweet and it I don't know. I really like it. I can bring you some to try. I should have texted you. Like bring me one of those I know. Yeah, no, I need to try some because I'm always just trying. I, I'm just trying to fine tune the nutrition thing, right. Like I just, I just learned what carb loading was. I've been running for a long time and I've done almost 60 half marathons and seven full marathons. And so I'm like, oh, I know what I'm doing.

And then I'm like, oh, I'm carb loading. I'm eating spaghetti the night before. And then I saw this Featherstone Nutrition like carb loading plan and it's like for the week prior, yeah, it's like, no, you have to like. Eat so much. So many carbs that you're like, I don't want any more carbs I just want to eat a salad like that's how much carbs is like equates to carb loading. So anyway, I digress but yeah. So how do you use their? Do you use their products leading up to the race as well and not just during? So in training I'll use their products so they.

Have quite a few options. I really like their salted soup mix which is a drink mix. You can have it warm or cold and I actually prefer that to like the sweeter fruity drink mixes because I tend. To get taste or. Flavour fatigue at the end of ultras so I don't want anything sweet at all. So the salted too mix is great, satisfies my sodium needs and also has carbohydrates in it. So that's been wonderful. And then they also bars stroop, waffles, gels and these purees with like apple. And then there's sweet potato one. Too. So I, yeah, they have a lot of options and I've been able to get my intake up to like 300 calories an hour or up to like 90 grams of carbs an hour in races, which is important for the longer you go because it prevents inevitable crashes later on in the race if you've been.

Missing a handful. Of carbs an hour. Yeah, yeah. Wow. All right. Well, I'm going to try some. And then how do you think about like when you think about the ideal company to sponsor you like what are you thinking about there? So I think it at that point it comes. Down to the people as well or the experience. And it's less about the products like with NAC, I was totally blown away because they actually flew out to the Canyons 100K, which was, yeah, that was your most recent one, The most recent one. And they were literally. Out there supporting their athletes. So there were three of us and like at I'd come into an aid station and the two founders were literally like sponging down my dirty, muddy legs like they were hands on.

They were incredible. I couldn't have asked for a better experience with them. And then our North America product and athlete manager, Brie Sullivan, she was also a godsend before and after and during the race, just helping out in every capacity. That's really cool. So I think it also really matters that the. People. Are on board and supportive and just want you to succeed. Yeah. What? What? Kinds of shoes you typically wear, Do you wear multiple brands today? Yeah, So I mean, I wear a few different. Trail options. So I've done Saucony, I've done The North Face, Warren Brooks as well. So I don't have like a go to.

Like these are the only Yeah still in. The dabbling. Yeah, and dabbling. Well, working for Fleet. Feet helps. Yes, well, we don't. Offer very many I know you don't have. A lot of trail shoes, but at least you. Can try multiple because you don't have to pay full price which is always but I also very small feet so. Often there are not. Oh. What size shoot do you wear? 6 1/2? Shoot. Yeah. Yeah. What? Size do we start? In like 6 like 6. Yeah, there's like the smallest. Not very many. Yeah, that's true. So. It's OK. That that is a little bit of a struggle.

I didn't think about that piece of it. Like when athletes get sponsored, do you typically have like? OK, here's my Fuel sponsor. Here's my. Maybe you have, I don't know, apparel and shoes seem to kind of go hand in hand, so it depends if the. Brand has like apparel or not? So let's say like Brooks, they have shoes and apparel. So I wouldn't be able to have another apparel brand outside of that. Are there any shoes that don't? Does Ultra have? Apparel. That's a good question. I'm not sure. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 'Cause I feel like most shoe brands. Do offer shoe brands do.

But then there are also. Some shoe brands that don't have like road running shoes, so you'd be free to wear whatever whatever you want if you want and just. Trail shoes. OK, nice. We. Didn't talk. Where's Canyons? Where is that? Where was that race? That was also in California, That was in Auburn, and that was. This year, yes. And that just, I mean just happened. Recently. Yep. Cool. Gosh, how did that race go for you? I had a really great experience. I ended up getting 11th which I was a little sad about initially but it was a super competitive field. I just had an unfortunate re injure of my previously sprained ankle which I still I know they just they're not quite the same so still got some.

PT and. Rehab to do on that, to strengthen it up so it doesn't happen again. Yeah, yeah. So the second-half of the race was a lot slower than the 1st but still got 11th. That's amazing. Yeah, I was still he still. Finished have been. On those historic. Trails, yeah. That's really cool, yeah. Sprained ankles. I played indoor soccer at all sports here for a while, like with my husband. We played the Coed. It was so fun. But it got to the point where I sprained my ankle and then I couldn't run. And I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't want to give up running for.

And people, you know, don't know what they're doing. It's just like, yeah, too, too much. I like running better, so yeah. Oh well. I hope that helps. Who do you go to locally for PT? So I actually like. Found more resources online. I have been to PTI, did go to PT in Arizona when I first sprained it and they gave me exercises and stuff but I probably should be going to someone regularly. You sound like a runner. Weird. I should be stretching. OK, I try. I try my. Best. My extent. Is like getting a massage every couple. Months and the guy that I go to, it's like a combination of like deep tissue and sports kind of.

So that's where I stretch. It's like every two months. It's so bad. I'm so bad at that. But like any, yeah, any PT exercise, I'm just really bad. I'm sorry, Jacob, if you listen to this, I mean, I've got, I get dry needling done occasionally. From Ryan Van Meter, Doctor, OK. And then there's this other thing I saw and then what we can start to wrap up because we're going to have to the Osprey community. What's that? Oh, yes, I see that right. Is that Osprey or Osprey? So I'm fairly new to that, but basically it's. Just a female only community for women in the sports and entertainment space.

And it's basically just a community of women who can network and connect and there's events and they provide resources and classes on how to build businesses or brands or it's just a really interesting space, but a lot of cool individuals. And I'm lucky enough to have been asked to be a part of it. So I'm yeah, looking forward to seeing where that goes. Right. I know I'm like, I want to be a part of that. That's. So cool. I love, I just love stuff like that. Yeah. Having a community of like minded but also very different. Like that's got to be like a wide variety of people.

Yeah. I mean, there's like someone, there's a. Fighter there's a Olympic soccer player I've met yeah I've met so many incredible individuals through there so far and I've like just started with their community so cool well Congrats on that that's really neat I'll be. Interested to follow along in that journey as well. OK, we have to. I mean, I got to go do stuff. I guess I got to run at some point today. Which now like. Oh it's going to seem so easy though. I have my run this evening with a group. OK. What group? PBT? OK. What's today, Tuesday, Tuesday, the Tuesday workout? OK, did they do track stuff on Tuesday or today's hill workout?

Which I love. Yeah. That's you're like, that's what I am. That's my jam. So excited for that. Not the heat, though, because it's going to be warm. Yeah, it will be what's it's supposed to be, 83. OK, yeah, that's toasty. I might go on my treadmill. You watch something that's really smart. I'm. I'm just, it's funny because a lot of people obviously don't have treadmills. And so then I feel kind of guilty for like hiding in my basement when it gets too hot. But I if you have it, yeah, I'm going to and I'm going to watch something on Netflix and there we go. There you go.

Yay. OK so we're going to wrap this up even though I hate to do so and I'm going to weave another question I forgot to ask into my final questions. OK so end of the podcast questions. The 1st is what is your favorite mantra and or song? OK, I will start with the song option. Did you see what I wrote in my? I did. It is. It is Stacy's. Mom. How, How? Because it it, it just makes me laugh and smile. So you can't ever be too upset when you're listening to that song. So in a race or something, if you're not having the best time and you hear Stacey's mom, I mean, how can you not smile?

Yeah, I guess that's so funny and random. I. Love it just makes me laugh. Yeah, You're like, OK, hey, whatever works. Exactly. Heck yeah, I have. Well. I have two kids. Right. One is going to be a first grader this fall. There's three and they're on this. I don't even know if I say it. Poo poo bum bum song. Interesting. If you need more songs to make you laugh or smile, I will play you an excerpt of this after we stop recording. It's horrible and they love it. They just laugh like hysterically, but it's like the worst thing I've ever heard. So anyway. And then the other part of that.

So mantras. Yeah, I have a few. It changes race to race. Give them all to US, I think my. Original 1 is. Stronger than you think. Classic, classic. Yes, you can always do more than you. Think you can and. Then I also like make the leap because the way I think about it, everyone has something in their life that they're reaching for. Few will actually like, step up to the challenge. Fewer will actually make that leap. Many will fall short. But the only people that regret it are the ones who never try. So the way I see it, just like trying my best out there during a race and no matter what that looks like, even if I fall short, I won't know until I don't try.

Like what's scarier, to know what you're capable of or to never find out? Wow, so true. Gosh, you're so. Smart. Do you? Does it bother you when people talk about your age, like how young you are? I feel like that would bother me. I get sometimes I get asked if I'm still like. In high school, Yeah. What grade are you in? You're like, what? When did you? Graduate Like where'd you graduate high school? From And I'm like, oh, I actually just graduated from Notre Dame, but it's all good. I know I will appreciate it when I'm older. Isn't that annoying 'cause that's what people used to say to me like now.

I don't get mistaken for high schooler anymore, but I used to also. And they'd be like, oh, what grade are you in? And I'm like like 20th grade, like, I don't know. But then they'd be like, oh, you're going to love that when you're older. And I'm kind of like, OK, I, I mean, I embrace it. It is what it is. I don't. I don't really care. It is what it is, but I from my perspective. As now an older woman, I'm 37, I'm not old, but you know, it's it's just like, I just wish that I would have had the wisdom and like the forethought that you already have.

I think it's just going to it's going to take you incredible places. I already said that I'm saying it again, OK, And so keep going with the mantras. Sorry, did you was that the other? I forgot which one. You just said make the leap, make the leap. And then you said some profound things after that that I will need to like write down. And then what are more I've used. Don't let go of the. Rope in the past. So like, imagine you're hanging from a rope on a Cliff and during a race. And if you start like mentally cycling into negative thought patterns, like, oh, like, I'm not doing well.

Oh, this feels really hard. You're just slowly start slipping down that rope. And like, you have to imagine yourself like not letting go, not letting yourself get into those negative thought patterns because if you start going into that cyclical thinking, it's so hard to pull yourself out from. So yeah, you've just just not go there. Yeah. You don't want to let go of that rope. Nope. That's a good one, I like that. Do you use any like other visualizations when you run like that? I've picked up one from. Courtney Dewalter, So she's AI do know? I do know who that is, yes. And so it's.

The imagery of a filing cabinet in your brain. So anytime a problem may come up during a race, like, Oh, my leg's cramping, When have I experienced this before? And what did I do to solve it? And so you go into your filing cabinet, open the drawer, flick through the files to the race or the experience where you've had this issue before and like, what made it better, what made it worse? And so that's the way you can keep emotions. Out of. Things that are going wrong during your race. So instead of panicking, you can go into your filing cabinet and look for solutions. Yeah, and if it's not in there, you just get a new folder.

Start taking notes, then slowly put. It back and then. You're like, good, I will use that next time. OK, I like that too. Those are all good. This is like so selfish for me too, 'cause I use all the, I'm like, OK, I need to, I keep saying this like build a repository of all of the mantras that I've gathered by asking people this question because there's just so many really good ones. And then that way there's just a page you can go to and just like read them all. And that's what I would do. Another big one is forward is. A pace, Yeah. Ain't that the truth, specifically?

For like races with a lot of. Hurt when it feels like miles are going by very, very slow. Yeah, I always think. Yeah, again, like I can only relate. Just hiking, It's like, yeah, hiking feels like it takes for like a mile, takes so long. And then like picturing like you and your poles and like going through snow, I'm just like, yeah, forward to space. OK. And then next finish line or milestone, This is where I'm going to weave in the question I had about golden tickets. So people in the ultra scene probably know, Oh yeah, golden tickets. I know what that means. I didn't know what that meant because I'm not in that scene.

So for people who aren't familiar, what is a golden ticket? So a golden ticket is. Basically what it sounds like they hand you a golden ticket when you get first or second at specific qualifying races and those tickets grant you automatic entry into the Western states 100 Miller. And so Western states 100 Miller is basically like what we would call the Super Bowl for ultra running in the US. So it's 100 mile event at the end of June this month and it's basically like the big dance where everyone all like all the people who are top of the sport run. But also there is a lottery process where you can put your name in.

If you've run these qualifying races and finished in under a certain time where you can put your name in and your ticket count double S every year that you don't get in. And usually it takes, I want to say, an average of seven years to get through the lottery. So the faster way to do it is if you run these golden ticket events and you place top two for men or women and then you will get automatic entry. Wow. OK. So it's kind. Of complicated. Yeah, that's crazy. So are there any golden ticket events in Indiana? Oh, no. Oh no, she says. That was a dumb question.

So what they're all like, what are some of those? You said the Sonoma, one of them you said or No, no, you mentioned one earlier. Black Canyon is a golden ticket race. So is the. Canyons, 100 OK, OK. And then Javelina 100 Miller was also a golden ticket event. And then there are a couple others throughout the year, and they'll change slightly from year to year. So next year's ticket events haven't been named yet for next year's. Western States. 100 Miller. Gotcha. But yeah, right now I have. 4. Tickets in the lottery next year I'll have eight since I didn't get my name drawn. Unless I run and do well at a golden ticket race then I would automatically get entry.

Do you have any? Are you registered right now for any? Golden ticket races not. This year I probably probably will run Black Canyon 100K again in February next year, which is a A qualifier and also a golden ticket race. But yeah, my next race as of right now is Silver Rush 50 Miller July 6th and that's in Leadville, Co. OK. And is that separate from? Leadville event. It's part of the series, so it's actually a. Qualifier for the Leadville 100 Miller. OK. And have you? You haven't done that one yet? Correct. Is that one you also have to call, you have to qualify for that or I, I believe so, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I'm only doing one. 100 Miller this year. Theoretically and that will be in September. OK. And what is that the ITE or no no. That's it. It'll be run Rabbit run 100. Miller And that's also in Colorado. Steamboat. Oh my gosh. Have you? Been out to western states like during the event. I have not. I would love to. I was thinking like you could. Crew like, kind of, yeah. Just like travel and plane. Costs right now, not my friend, right? Yeah, OK. And then also, I forgot to ask you about the full MO because you that just happened this last weekend, although it'll be two weekends ago once this comes out.

But I spectated for the first time, which made me then want to do it 'cause I love the Mon on trail. But you won that once. Yes, yes, 2022, yeah. I almost like I was looking up results and then I saw your. Name And I was like, Oh my gosh, she ran this year. And then I realized I was looking at 2022 or like a different year. I almost deemed you like, hey, Congrats on that. And I was like, how did I miss you? And then I was like, oh, 'cause you're an idiot. And it was years ago. Yeah. So I just wanted to say Congrats on that, 'cause that's a cool race and I want to do it sometime.

Yeah. I mean, that was kind of a spur of the moment race. But it was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. For you, it's just like, OK, yeah, sure. 30 What's 30? One, no big deal. I mean it's like paved path. Our home, yeah, it is our home turf. Turf. I love I love the Modon. It's like a kind of like a treadmill for me where you kind of set it and forget it cause it's just exactly. That's pretty much what the race feels like 'cause you just. Straight line all the way down, which I love. Some people might really. Hate that, which I you would probably you would love this race then, yeah.

Next year, yeah, Sign up sometime. Sometime maybe. Next year, who knows? I really wanted to do it this year when I had friends do it and I was like, I really want to do it and I was like, I don't have time to train for that and not hurt myself probably. OK, well and then what are dream race for you? Obviously western states. Are there other like would you do bad water? I picture you. Being someone who could do. That I hate the heat, but maybe. Yeah, I do too. I think I I would love to. Do. UTMB so that's in Chamonix, France and that is kind of like the Western states equivalent in Europe, but it's beautiful.

You run around Mont Blanc and yeah, it it looks like a magical experience. So someday that would be on my bucket list to do. Gosh. Well, thank you so much. Shay for doing this, it was so fun to finally get a chance to meet you thanks to your dad, Don. And then Larry also was like you got to have this girl that Shay and I was like, OK, this is it's time. It's time to have her on. But gosh, I feel like I'm lucky because again, early on in your running career, so and anybody who's listening that can get this amazing, talented, smart girl a job, like maybe get her out of here.

Like Indiana, this girl needs some mountains. We're out West hopefully, or near mountains. Yeah, as as. Selfish as I want to like keep you in our running. Community, it's like wow, you're going to do big things. So again, thanks again, thank you everybody who's listened to this and happy running the end. Thank you.

Ally Brettnacher