Episode 29: Cindy Smith - Powerful Moms

Episodes

Oct 20

Cindy Smith ran the Chicago Marathon nine months after having her son, Archer, and ran a 33-minute PR. We talk tech, immigrant parents, entrepreneur moms, and building Pen and Paces.

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About this episode

Cindy Smith is the founder of Pen and Paces, a business that makes uplifting stationery, apparel and accessories for when running gets hard. She grew up in Manhattan's Chinatown as the daughter of immigrants from Burma, studied business at Boston University, and spent about 15 years in tech, starting at Google in 2006, before moving to Massachusetts and going full time on her business. She and I met on Instagram in October 2022 and have been internet friends ever since.

We talk about our entrepreneur moms, how Cindy went from not being able to run a city block to her first half marathon across the Golden Gate Bridge, and her OG running friend Lauren, who ran Napa and New York with her. Then we get into how a calligraphy side business called Smitty Lettering turned into Pen and Paces, and how she finished the 2023 Chicago Marathon in 3:51 with her friends pacing her.

In this episode, we discuss

Becoming internet friends through Instagram and a Peloton celebrity run
Running a full marathon before her first baby turned one
Moving from San Francisco to Massachusetts to be closer to family
Her parents' immigration from Burma and her mom's children's clothing store in New York City
Growing up academic-focused in Chinatown and not running as a kid
Boston University, a year on Wall Street, and joining Google in 2006
What Google's perks taught her about purpose at work
Her first half marathon across the Golden Gate Bridge, starting from one city block
Her OG running friend Lauren and running the Napa Valley Marathon and New York City Marathon together
Running the New York City Marathon in her hometown in 2009 and 2011
Rock 'n' Roll DC, dozens of half marathons, and 200-mile relays
How Smitty Lettering, her calligraphy business, became Pen and Paces in 2020
Name bib kits and why spectators should be able to cheer your name
Chicago 2023: deferring since 2020, getting sick in training, a three-day carb load, and her Pen and Paces Pacers
Breaking four hours with a 3:51 and seeing her husband and son at the finish

Chapters

00:00 · Intro
03:00 · Internet friends and a marathon before Archer turned one
09:00 · Pen and Paces and moving cross country
12:00 · Immigrant parents and an entrepreneur mom
16:00 · Growing up in Chinatown
20:00 · Boston University, Wall Street and Google
24:00 · Life inside Google
30:00 · A first half across the Golden Gate Bridge
34:00 · Lauren, Napa and New York
41:00 · Rock 'n' Roll DC and 200-mile relays
46:00 · From Smitty Lettering to Pen and Paces
51:00 · The 2023 Chicago Marathon
57:00 · A 33-minute PR
1:03:00 · Songs and mantras
1:07:00 · Seeing Archer at the finish

Where to find Cindy

Mentioned in this episode

Races: Chicago Marathon, New York City Marathon, Napa Valley Marathon, Golden Gate Half Marathon, Rock 'n' Roll DC, Rock 'n' Roll Las Vegas, Ragnar Relay, Marine Corps Marathon, CNO Indianapolis Monumental Marathon, Carmel Marathon, Boston Marathon, Philadelphia Marathon, California International Marathon
Organizations and charities: Pen and Paces, Google, Boston University, ExactTarget, Salesforce, 26 Diamond, Peloton
Other: Lose Yourself by Eminem, Kernkraft 400 by Zombie Nation

Previous guests mentioned

Related episodes

Frequently asked

Who founded Pen and Paces?

Cindy Smith founded Pen and Paces, a running-inspired business that grew out of her calligraphy side business, Smitty Lettering, and launched running products in 2020.

What was Cindy Smith's Chicago Marathon time?

Cindy Smith ran the 2023 Chicago Marathon in 3:51, a 33-minute PR, nine months after having her son Archer, with friends pacing her as the Pen and Paces Pacers.

How did Cindy Smith start running?

Cindy Smith started running after moving to San Francisco for a job at Google, training from a single city block up to her first half marathon across the Golden Gate Bridge.

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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically, so it may contain errors.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones with Ally Brettnacher incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals in fitness. This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets. Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting athlete bouquets.com.

Hello. Welcome to episode 29. This is Ally Brettnacher and I feel like I'm kind of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to this crazy busy last couple of weeks that I've had. I ran a half marathon on. Oh God, the seventh. Got on a plane later that day. Went to Florida for fall break for a few days.

Came back and got my little sister Morgan married to her now husband Mike. They're currently on their honeymoon in St. Lucia, which is actually where my husband and I went almost 10 years ago. So I'm really jealous. And then I came back to a ton of orders, which is super fun. But I've been playing catch up and getting ready for New York.

So not to run, but just to support everybody who's gonna order stuff for people running or gifts for people after running. And if you're gonna be in New York running, my friend and episode 18 of this podcast, Leslie Gregory, the founder of 26 Diamond, is gonna be at the expo. And so kindly offered to have a giveaway.

So I will be sending her a bunch of New York shoe stickers. So if you're running and you're gonna be at the expo, make sure you stop by her booth for one of those. So I had the privilege of speaking with Cindy Smith this week. Cindy and I are internet friends. We talk a little bit about how our internet friendship began.

It's been about a year, which is crazy. It feels like longer than that actually. But we talked about her Chicago marathon. She just ran. Chicago this year and got a 33 minute pr. She has a nine month old son and we joked about how she should have gotten two medals for that. Running a full marathon before your firstborn child is one is incredible, although she kind of had to because she had deferred a few times.

So what a great forcing function for an incredible accomplishment. So congrats again, Cindy on that. We also talk about how she ended up in Boston, where she is today. We talk about her business, we talk about her immigrant parents and both of our moms who happened to be entrepreneurs as well. How she got into technology, uh, ultimately in the Bay Area in San Francisco, how she started running.

Her first race, which included a jaunt across the Golden Gate Bridge. We talk about her friend Laura, who was really responsible for getting her into running her. She calls her her OG running friend. They did the Napa Marathon and many other races together. We chatted about races that we've done. We dive more into the story of her business pen and pastes and really what she's doing with that and how, how it got started, and then we talk more about her Chicago Marathon experience from this year.

It was so much fun. Every time I talk to Cindy, I just leave so energized and inspired because she's truly doing wonderful things and I'm so glad to have her in my corner. So I hope everybody enjoys this conversation with my friend Cindy. Okay, so we are now recording. I'm here with Cindy Smith, owner, founder of Pen and Pastes, and my internet friend.

We were just talking about how much we wanna meet each other in person someday, Cindy. I know, uh, one day soon I was saying, I will come to Indy or you come to Boston and we'll make it happen. Yeah. We'll we are going to one of these days. So how old is your son Archer right now? So he's nine months. He's just turned nine months as I like went, went to Chicago.

Uh, so it was a big milestone and, you know, he's developing, he is, uh, you know, current, currently going to daycare and so it's been a wild journey. Yeah. And well you just were telling me he is not sleeping for you right now, so. Yeah. Um, everybody tells me, you know, every baby goes through it, but sleep regression is a real thing.

He was a perfect sleeper until about, you know. Peak marathon training. Right, right. Until the hardest part. He's like, I don't wanna sleep anymore. No. You know, if you, you know, if you have stuff going on, I wanna have stuff going on too. Ah, babies. Oh my gosh. Well, I just, I can't believe that you ran a full marathon before your first baby turned one.

I know you get a second medal. A second medal. I know. I feel, I feel like, uh, you know, I am, I was thinking through some, like, some of the like running accomplishments and I was like, I have to say this one. I mean, I don't think anything tops it right now. No. Like I could say, you know, another, like my first marathon, but no, like, you know, like running a marathon, uh, as a mom in general is just so crazy and different and I just didn't realize the dimensions of planning that you have to be doing during training.

But also while you are running, um, in training runs, but while you're doing the race itself, you know, all the emotions when you see your family and, uh, at the end are just so different. And like I have like, again, a newfound appreciation for mothers and you know, just women who are to caretakers, uh, in general.

It's just so much that goes into, you know, making sure that you fit in these, you know, runs while you're taking care of others. It's crazy. It is really crazy what women, and like you have two kids and I'm like, I don't even know. Yeah, I know. Well, and then, oh my gosh, some of my friends are like having four kids and I'm like, goodness, what the heck?

I can't, I mean, you know, power to them, it's like, yeah, yeah, we are done. Having kids two is good. I went through a lot with pregnancy and giving birth and we won't get into that, but it was just, you know, they're great. We're good. It's so hard though to be like Yeah. In that stage, but, you know, we're, we're on the other side where I can kind of start to see glimpses of, you know, us doing things while they're, you know, independent and able to do things for themselves.

And it's, it's nice. It's nice. Yeah. But you're still in the trenches, I'm sure. It's like a very, like Yeah, I'm sure it's different phases. Like right now I'm in the, like, you know, very not independent phase. And then as we grow is a different type of challenge and different, like, you know, skills that they up level to as well.

But I just, yeah, it's, I'm learning through all this journey as well. Yep, yep. And I think you learn, when you become a mom, you're like, nobody knows what they're doing. Clearly. My gosh. Like, how Nobody told me this. Why didn't anybody tell me I was gonna lose all my hair? I thought I was dying. Oh my gosh.

People can't see this, but my like, there's literally like, you know, spikes out of my hair. Yeah. It's like the halo of the newborn hair. It's so great. It's like, what can you do? So. Cindy and I met just via Instagram. I'm trying to remember how long it's been. Yeah, it's could have been. Okay. So I had, yeah, I had to look this up because I'm, it feels, feels like a long time.

Uh, but it's only been a year Exactly. Actually October, 2022. Wow. Your first message, I think. Okay. So for everybody out there, this is how internet friendships begin. Like we, I think maybe one of us followed each other and then the other one followed the other one back, and then, you know, there's nothing, nothing goes on.

And then. I think. Okay. I have to think, I think Peloton and Ashton Kutcher, because I think I posted a story about one of the, you know, remember they were doing all these like motivational celebrity runs, Uhhuh. So I think I posted about Ashton Kutcher and then you messaged me and you're like, oh, this is so cool.

Like you did a, like a Kim K one or something. Yeah. And then that's, that's where I started. And I was like, oh, this is a cool, you have a cool business, you're a mom. And then I later found out you were also, uh, you know, in tech. And I'm like, I have to know this personally. Like, and the rest is history. So ago, um, now that we, we met each other, quote unquote met each other man, I feel like years in like entrepreneurship and motherhood feels like 10 years.

I feel like I've known you way longer than a year, but I know it's been so great. We've done, we've gone on like this isn't our first time zooming together. We've done zooms every so often, which has been so nice just to have somebody kind of in the same. Situation, really trying to build a business.

Absolutely. Raise a family and also maintain your level of fitness. It's like, it's just really nice to have and somebody who is in tech, so I can't wait to get to know you even better today because Yeah, certainly when we talk it's not as long as I would like. And so now we actually get to just sit back and, and I get to know you.

So Absolutely. For everybody out there who does not know you, if you could just do kind of, you know, your typical introduction, who you are, where you're from, that kind of stuff. Sure. Absolutely. So, Cindy Smith, uh, owner and creator of Pen and Pastes, uh, which is a, uh, product based business that creates uplifting products for when running is hard.

Everyone knows who runs, you know, in inevitably things get hard, you know, you don't wanna do it, you don't wanna wake up, go out, go outside. But I wanna create products, uh, whether it's stationary apparel or accessories that just creates a little bit of, uh, uplifting, you know, mementos, uh, that you could wear and use, um, that will give you just a boost of, you know, positive energy.

And so I, uh, created this business like off and on for the last three or so years, but, uh, recently focused and. Decided to go full-time on pen and faces. So I'm doing this all, you know, full-time now, which is crazy to me. Uh, but really fun. Uh, I'm originally from Chinatown, New York City, um, and so East coast, uh, and, but spend, uh, last, you know, 15, 16 years out in California, uh, working in tech.

And then in the last two years I've actually moved, uh, to Massachusetts where my husband's family's from. And, you know, we, we decided, you know, hey, if you're gonna change one thing, change everything. So move cross country, change my job, had a baby, you know. Uh, so, uh, all that happened in the last year.

That's, oh my gosh, Cindy, you're a saint. So you moved just for his family, not necessarily for his job. What does he do for work? Uh, so he's also a technologist. So he's engineering. Okay. Um, but we, we moved, uh, because I think like with a lot of people through the pandemic, we were kind of reevaluating where we wanna be.

Right. Um, and we were so far away from family. My family's here in the east coast in New York, and his family's in Massachusetts, so we wanted to, um, be closer to family, uh, and ultimately, and so, uh, we decided in with Massachusetts, uh, to be closer to his family, but ultimately it's closer to mine because we can go get to New York City pretty easily.

Yeah. That's so nice. Especially coming all the way from San Francisco. Can you imagine being out there right now, like with your baby and not having family? We talk about that a lot and you know, it it if, you know, we had kind of a alternate universe where we decided not to stay there. Mm-hmm. It such a different situation.

'cause like our family wouldn't be there and having a nine month old, you know, they, you know, he wouldn't know his, you know, grandparents and Right. Uncles and aunts. Um, so it's very different. We'd make work and it would be great, but in very, very different ways. Yeah. Just backing up for a second, growing up, what did your parents do?

Yeah. Um, so my parents were, were immigrants from Burma actually. Oh, wow. Um, and so they came in the seventies and, you know, very little education. So they came to the United States for more opportunity. And so they, my dad was a machine worker, so he worked at the like, um, diamond, um, kind of machine shop. Uh, and so that's why he did a lot.

And then my mom actually was an entrepreneur. She in Burma made clothes, uh, for her community. And so she was, uh, kind of pretty like, you know, small town famous in her community for making dresses and, and clothes, uh, for her family and friends and her, um, and the community at large in Burma. And so when she came to the United States, she, that's her skill that she could leverage.

And so she actually started her own children's clothing store in the village in Chi in, in New York City. Oh. And so that's what I knew of her to be doing for most of my life. And so I think growing up I, I always was like, oh, I'm not gonna do that. I, you know, when I grew up, but I ultimately think I got the kind of entrepreneurship bug from her watching her, you know, kind of create a business on her own.

And, uh, you know, being very creative with her skillset that she has being a business woman. And, uh, so she was an entrepreneur for many years on her own, and then ultimately she pivoted because, you know, the, the trending of retail had, you know, had changed so much. Uh, but right now she, uh, or most recently became a healthcare coordinator.

Um, and she's pivoted so many times in her career. It's just kind of insane. And, you know, she's always been a person to adopt the growth mindset and, you know, kind of, uh, you know, approach problems with so much, um, you know, kind of creativity and say, you know, couldn't tackle anything. So that's what my parents did.

And, you know, really valued education. So, you know, we as a family have two older brothers. We're, we're, you know. Really wanted to pursue education. They pushed us a lot in making sure to finish high school, finish college. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think all three of us have like, advanced degrees beyond undergraduate and so really valued education because of like, um, how they didn't have the opportunity in, in their country.

Yeah. That's so cool. Now I remember when you and I first met, we did talk about our moms, kinda like the shared entrepreneurship when it came to our moms. Yeah. Um, my mom and dad were in tech and started a, so my mom started the software business and many people who don't know assume that my dad was the one that started it.

'cause he was ultimately, that's amazing. He was ultimately the CEO of it as my mom helped kind of on the family side, but my mom was the one who did it. Amazing. Yeah. So they've always inspired me to do my own thing. And never in a million years would I have thought that my own thing was Athlete Bouquet is like what I'm doing now.

But I think I realized working in tech, working in startups, especially through the pandemic, I just realized I didn't really want that for myself and my family. And so now I'm just so fortunate that they kind of paved the way for me to be able to do something that I really love. So look at us. Gosh, go moms.

Yeah. Um, powerful moms, I would say, you know, like certainly it's like, I think underappreciated how much like, you know, influence and how much they can do, like in terms of the back, you know, background and even in the foreground, right? Like, I think they just do so much. Yeah. Has your mom made any clothes for Archer?

Uh, so she's has saved a lot of the stuff that, uh, she made and like sold. And when she. At the store. Um, and she's given, uh, Archer a lot of those clothes. Uh, but you know, I think she's, um, definitely thinking about like what she, she can make right. Um, but she's very, very enthused to have some, like a little, uh, baby to like, you know, fawn over and give gifts mm-hmm.

To, and so, and I think it's, you know, something that brings her a lot of joy. Yeah. For sure. Do your brothers have any kids or is Archer the first? No. Okay. We're, he's the first the first grandkids, but, you know mm-hmm. It's always, uh, always like a big deal. And so, uh, you know, he's gonna be spoiled, um, you know, in every direction.

Yep. Yep. That's how my oldest Sydney was too, so it's like, yeah. She was the only one. So she got all of the love and attention, which she, yeah. Yeah. She now shares, but still loves. So, growing up, especially in Manhattan, Chinatown, did you play sports and stuff growing up as a kid? No. So I would say like I wasn't very athletic.

I wasn't very artistic. It was much more academically focused. Okay. Because of, you know, the kind of mentality of opportunity in the United States. Like my parents were very academic focused and they pushed me to like study very hard. Mm-hmm. Um, especially in like the mathematics and sciences, uh, because that's what they.

Kind of envisioned as, you know, the way to success. Yeah. Um, so I would say I wasn't at all athletic. I played basketball a little bit here and there, and like even in school and things like that, I certainly wasn't a runner. And I like didn't know a first thing about running a mile or even a block. But yeah, it wasn't something that, uh, we prioritized as a family.

Um, my, my brothers were somewhat more athletic than me, you know, one of my brothers was in gymnastics and track and things like that. So I would say like, we did some of that, but I think the priority was certainly more like, study in the books and, you know, your homework and, uh, do well on your tests. Um, and so I, I certainly like.

Uh, I say this all the time, but I, I do wish I start like did some running, um, just to see like if I would like it. But a lot of my friends tell me like, oh, if you ran like throughout high school, you might not like it, uh, now because, you know, it was maybe too much pressure or like, yeah. Yeah. Well, I hated running in high school.

Like I played soccer and I hated the mile warmup was like my least favorite part. I would rather do sprints than run a mile, which thinking about that now is kind of funny, right? It's like, oh yeah. Like what, what is your dynamic like, since you didn't like it in school, but you love it now? Like, how do you think about that?

Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of funny. Well, I, my relationship with running started in really an unhealthy manner. It was really an, it was in college just to kind of counteract all the partying and, you know, trying to not gain weight. And so it was just really the, my start into running wasn't, I don't know how I still like it frankly 'cause I did it almost as a punishment for myself.

But now it just, you know, as you know, as a mom. And I started running before I was a mom, but it was just more like the stress relief and like time to yourself and kind of therapeutic side of things. And also just maintaining a level of health. You know, I find that I feel better if I run. Absolutely. So I'm sure you Yeah, agree.

My, my husband knows like if I don't run, I'm like, I turn into this, like, you know. Oh good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. My sister this weekend, my middle, my little sister got married this weekend, my baby sister. Oh. And um, which would be October 14th for anyone listening to this. And so, like, the day before, my middle sister, so I'm the oldest of three girls.

She was like, you need to make sure you get a run-in. Because she knew, she knew that I needed to like, have a workout in. So I actually did the day of the wedding, I actually stayed at my parents and they have a Peloton too, so I actually got a ride. Oh, nice. Instead of a run. But really it sets the tone for the day for me.

Um, yeah. And I don't always workout in the morning. I forget, are you morning? I'm a morning runner for sure. Morning. Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, I say like, if I could get it in during the day now, uh, I'll be lucky. Like, even if it's in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. Just like being able to get it in is also a win.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. So, so I did wanna talk a little bit more about tech, because that's something that we share. Did you end up going to undergrad out in San Francisco? Like, how'd you, how'd you get there? Yeah. Uh, so no, I went to, uh, school here in Boston, the Boston University. Um, so that's kind of my connection to Massachusetts as well.

I spent some time here, uh, within, in school and, and I majored in business, but had a concentration in like, management information systems and finance. Mm-hmm. And so I had like an inkling of interest in tech. Uh, I remember this will date me, but like, you know, somebody in my class had like one of the first USB sticks and I was like fascinated with that because before that we were, you know, using these like floppy discs.

Yeah. Like, but I was like fascinated with tech and, uh, technology and, you know, had this kind of really strong belief that technology was gonna be the future. And so, um. Uh, my, you know, my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time was, uh, in engineering. So, you know, he also had a big influence in kind of me having interest in learning about the industry, learning about, you know, engineering and, you know, how that works in, in conjunction with business.

And so, mm-hmm. That was like my first kind of introduction to, um, technology and, you know, what that would look like. So once I graduated, uh, I thought I wanted to go into finance, so I actually moved to New York and worked at a big bank on Wall Street, and I like quickly found out I did not like that. And the culture.

You know, it was kind of a lot of homogenous, like very not diverse, like, like very toxic kind of culture that, you know, spent a year there but quickly realized that I wanted to, you know, go to into tech. And at the time Google was like all the rage and hiring a lot in, in the San Francisco Bay area. And I said, this is like my dream.

Like I wanna learn about tech, learn what, uh, want, learn about what it means to work in tech and also it. You know, put my skills that, and interest in technology in play. And so, and the culture, you know, of Google is still famous for how it, well, it treats employees, you know, kind of, uh, enabling them to make impact into the business.

And so, uh, that's kind of my journey in applying to Google. And then I was able to get a job there and it was kind of a, a game time to decision to like stay in New York or move cross country. Right. Um, and uh, at the time I was like, I don't know, like this is like a big move. I've never lived outside of the East coast and, um, so far away from family, but.

Um, when I asked my parents and, uh, you know, my husband who was also open to moving out there, I, they were all very supportive and I said, wow, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. You know, at the time it was, yeah, Google, it's like, this is something I can't pass out and, you know, I could always come back home.

Um, right. But we took the opportunity and flew out and I was there in kind of the, in the next couple of months. Uh, wow. So started my journey into tech. And what year was that, that you started working for Gull? 2006. 2006. So, okay. Yeah, it was, you know, now thinking about this a long time ago, right? I know.

It's like, oh, that doesn't seem, yeah, it's a long time ago. I know. It didn't seem like that long, but it, yeah, it's crazy how, how time goes. So, back in, when you started there, Google was still had to be a pretty big company. How many employees was it like going on a campus? There still, like with the Bachelor?

Yeah. Yeah. So it was about, I think I remember being maybe 10,000 people, which Yeah, very large. Um, but compared to like the bank that I worked at with just a hundred thousand people, it was felt smaller. Um, yeah. And it was a campus, but you know, it was almost like a playground. Yeah. Because you like, recall like, you know, Google invested a ton in, in their like employee experience, the campuses like Yeah, the food, the, you know, um, and uh, so it was, uh, a bigger company.

It was big, but you know, certainly still like starting out of their, uh, their journey of where they have become now. But yeah, it was, it was about 10,000 employees. Wow. So I could talk about this for like the whole time, but I'm sure there's people like Oh, tech. Cool. You guys are nerds. Um, I know which I am and, but I wanna know a little bit more.

So we'll just spend a little bit more time here. But what was. In terms of the culture, I'm sure people who maybe don't know, it's like tech companies, especially in San Francisco. It's like ping pong tables, kegs like nap pods, like all kinds of crazy stuff that they have in the office. What was, I guess, the most surprising or like coolest thing that they had when you worked there?

Um, let's see. I think. For me, it was just all the human comforts. Like I was, you know, you would could go there and spend all week there and literally not leave. Not that you would want to, but like, you could do your laundry there, you could have daycare there, you know, like they could do your oil change and then like you could eat there, breakfast, lunch, and dinner and uh, you know, they would pay, uh, they would have like budget for you to like decorate your desks to make it feel like the way you wanna make it feel.

But they also had like career development stuff, right? If you wanted a career coach, they would sponsor that. They would Wow. Um. Give you budget to like go back to school and take classes and things like that. So I really feel like they went above and beyond any company's, um, ability to kind of make you feel like you're, uh, welcome and, and, um, you know, comfortable there.

I would say that I, on the other side of things, they came out with a study that like, um, what surprised me and I guess in, in certain many different ways. It's not about those things that make people really love your job. Right? Yeah. It's really about like, you know, um, your purpose and your, uh, your, you know, value Yeah.

And what you feel like you're making impact that really makes people happy. Yeah. Um, and so I feel like that was a big learning for like, everybody in the Valley and in technology's like, yeah. You could all certainly like get people with all these like benefits and Right. Perks. Really that's gonna be like a small part of what makes people happy in their careers.

Right. I know it's funny to think about, but I've been in cultures that aren't great and, you know, we've gotta ping pong table and beer. But it's like, who gives a shit if you're not, if I don't feel valuable or I'm not having professional success. Forget about it. I've certainly been there and felt that, and I think that's part of the reason why I worked for a company in Indianapolis called ExactTarget that was acquired by Salesforce, and I stayed for about a year after the acquisition, but I just felt like such a small cog in a gigantic machine that now today is even bigger.

But I just, I couldn't see the value that I was bringing. I don't know. It just didn't, I didn't feel it. So that's why after that I ended up in startups for so long, but yeah. Yeah, exactly. I feel like there's, you know, you're not alone. I, I certainly felt like that as the company grew bigger and I think that's why like people are gravitate to smaller companies and startups 'cause they have like outsized impact on, you know, on the, what they do.

Yeah. So, God bless my husband who is still in corporate America. Thank you. Thank you. So that I do not have to do it. So I don't know. And I always think, you know, I can always go back if I ever, you know, really wanted to. But I find, especially now doing my own thing, I just can't picture that anymore for myself.

And it's, you know, d different things for different folks, right? Yep. Like, I feel like there the, you know, um, in different phases of people's lives, like that works really well. Um, and then there's, you know, just, you know, different parts of the journey where like, mm-hmm. You were curious about us for a startup or your own business.

And then it might fluctuate too, right? Like mm-hmm. I would say, you know, for both of us, maybe like one day, like the, you know, maybe the tides turn, I don't know. Right. I know it's like season. The, yeah. The seasons of life certainly have an impact on that. And then really quickly too, what did, what did you do? Like, what was your role? I, so I, I think about this a lot. I feel like I, um, thrive in not specializing in one thing. That's great. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that's also why I gravitated to like smaller companies at the end of, um, the, uh, more recent tech, um, career. But, uh, I'd say like my background is in operations.

Okay. Which is also very big, but business operations, which, you know, could include things like customer operations, partnership operations, or, you know, just like project management internally. I've done a lot of different things, um, in my most recent role in terms of, you know, investor services, talking to, uh, end customers, and then also with like partner banks and things like that.

So I'd say like. If I were to summarize my like skillset, it's just kind of like a jack of all trades, right? Yeah. How it fits all together. I think that's why I love running my own business because I get to see across like how everything fits together. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I love the analytical finance and you know, kind of, um, business, you know, metrics side of things.

But I also love talking to clients and partners in negotiation and sales and like, I don't know where else I could get that other than Yeah. You know, start my own business. Right. I know. Well, and then if you're like me, then I have a hard time letting go of anything. And so yeah, it's like, it's great. It's me, my bi and like I get to do everything and I get to learn everything and experience, you know, it's, I Yeah, absolutely.

You and I are aligned there as well. And that's, and you said you have a master's as well on the data and analytics side, which is funny 'cause I. Majored in decision sciences, which, uh oh yes. Miami of Ohio is no longer a major actually. But it's like all around the data of business and how that drives decision making.

And I find it fascinating and it really ties into a lot of what you're trying to figure out as an entrepreneur, so. Absolutely. Yeah. It all ties together. Oh, you have like so much in common. We do. I feel like every time we talk we feel like, we're like, I know. I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot about that part of you.

That's me too. It's great. Oh man, that's amazing. So amazing. Um, okay, so how did the running piece tie in? 'cause now we're gonna have to talk about all things running because we could spend the rest of the time only talking about Chicago Marathon, but we need to talk about so much more. So how did you start running?

Yeah, so it actually ties into, um, moving out to California. When I moved in 2006, uh, I, I felt a little lonely. And also like, um, after, you know, a year or so of the job, I, I felt like I wanted more to my job, right? Mm-hmm. Like back to kind of, the perks don't really fulfill that need of, like, growth and impact.

And so I quickly realized like my job wasn't gonna fulfill that. Um, it'll fulfill some part of like, you know, certainly like income and, um, you know, uh, purpose and things like that. But I, I wanted more, I wanted more growth. I wanted to push myself to see where I, what I can do skill-wise and, you know, professionally, fitness wise.

So, um, I was actually just searching for something that would push me beyond my comfort zone and landed on running. Um, because I was like, what is this thing where you run, you know, 13.1 miles for a half and 26.2 for a, for a full marathon? I was like, lemme start with a half. Let's see what, what, what I could do.

And so I, you know, I was actually just really, uh, searching for something that I could push myself, have some goals, uh, outside of work. And I just signed up for my first half marathon. It was, um, at the time called the US half, uh, based in San Francisco. And you run across the Golden Gate Bridge. Oh, cool.

And I think it's called the Golden Gate half now, but it seemed like a cool, iconic thing to do. They run across the grid. So I gave myself, I think, what is something like 16 weeks, uh, or 18 weeks. Um, I had, you know, it spreadsheets wasn't a thing, uh, or to use for tracking. So I had like my paper uhhuh, you know, Halton Halton training, training schedule.

And like I highlighted it every day that I could do it. And had to start from the very beginning. I could never, I could not run more than a, a city block before starting. So I was like, oh my gosh, I have a lot to do. So, uh, it's fulfilled that gap of having goals and pushing myself. Mm-hmm. Every day I would run around the block and, and then, you know, two loops, and then three loops, and then turn into a mile to five miles to 10 miles, and then 13 miles ultimately.

And so. After that first uh, half marathon, I was hooked and it was beautiful. Right. You go across the Golden Gate Bridge. Yeah, it's like picturesque. Um, and it was, uh, an accomplishment and I was hooked and I was like, what else can I do? So it started from there. I love that you started with a half marathon.

That's funny. Well 'cause people listening like a lot. I don't know. I imagine a lot of people listening are longer distance. We talk a lot about marathoning, but it's like there are runners who never run a marathon, right? You don't have to run a marathon or a half marathon. So I love that you're like, yeah, I just started with 13.1, whereas like most people would probably start with a 5K.

I think that was how I was too. I don't think I had done a 5K before I did my first half. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it was just like, let's just go right into it. You know? I just running. Yeah, I, I really didn't know, like, I think it was maybe like a Google search thing, so the first thing that came up was like, you know, okay have read that.

I was like, okay, that's it. That's what I'll do. Yeah. I miss, I used to be able to go out to the Bay area when I worked in tech and I loved running in Golden Gate Park. Oh my goodness. Like I would take an Uber to the park to then be able to like run up and down and like run up to where you could see the bridge and it was just so magical and absolutely.

I don't know. It's gorgeous. I'll be there again. But it is so big there. Yeah. And it's like, you know, always perfect running weather in San Francisco because it does feel that way. It's hot, it's foggy, like, you know. Yeah. So nice. Oh man. Okay, so you did a half marathon to start and then. What was your next race?

Do you remember? Yeah, so, um, so the next thing you know, I was working at Google and then, um, my, I met my like, original running friend, um, you know, Lauren, the OG run friend. My friend Lauren. Lauren started at Google and sat next to me. And, you know, she will describe me as a very quiet person. Um, but then, you know, she mentioned, she was like, uh, she did her first marathon or, uh, her, her like, uh, a marathon recently.

And I was like, I like, you know, perked up and I was like out of my shell and I was like, I just did my first half marathon. Like, you know, I wanna talk about the marathon. Like, let's not talk about work, let's talk about right. Let's talk running. And so she actually. Was training for, you know, more marathons.

And I was like, oh my God, like what's this marathon thing? Like, I don't know if I could do it. Uh, 13.1 is my longest run and she's like, oh, you could do it. Uh, let's sign up for the next one. So from there, um. Her and I actually ran so many races, um, throughout like our time together, working together. And then, um, oh, that's so great.

I left Google and then we still run together. And then most recently her and my friend Ru paced me at, at Chicago. And so, um, I have to say like she was my original running friend where she like pushed me to run Maurices. We actually ran Napa, uh, Napa Valley Marathon together, um, and then we ran New York Marathon together.

Um, and so it was just like, um, you know, just having that community like running, um, topic in common introduced me to like my, you know, some of my really great best friends. Um, and, you know, uh, has, we've had so many great experiences together. That's so cool. I love that you just ran with her. That's so special.

Does she live, where does she live? Does she still live out west or? She's still in the Bay Area. Okay. Um, but, you know, I think running has really kept us connected. Yeah. Um, so she came to Boston, uh, this year, uh, to spectate together and then, you know, we met each other in Chicago and, uh, you know, we now we just like meet each other and friends.

Right. You know, I, that's why I love running. I couldn't say that enough. Right. It's like the community aspect of it. You know, I have this like, group of running friends. We're all, I think almost all of us are moms. No, all of us are moms now, I think. And we, you know, we live all over the country, but we, that's still kind of unites us and we occasionally email like, Hey, when the heck are we gonna run again?

It's like, you know, trying to do that in the midst of having young kids is really tricky. But Absolutely. You know, I just, it keeps us, you know, it keeps us together. And Soly at some point at. Yeah, we'll get that game back together. And such a great way to like catch up too. Like Yeah, you don't have to like sit down, but like while you're running you just like, yeah.

Talk. Yes. You just like catch up for like ages. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. So, oh my gosh. That's so fun. So your first marathon, was it Napa was your first 26.2. Nice. Did they give you like a glass of wine at the end? I, yeah, I, I remember them like one of, I think the schwag was a bottle of wine.

Okay. Yeah. I was gonna say, like, that does not sound good right after you finish a marathon. No, no, no. Yeah, and it was beautiful because, um, it's through like all of the wineries that, uh, there was just like one highway and you run all, all through the wineries, through the hills. It is like, it's like rolling hills, I would say like super hilly, but Yeah.

Um, rolling hills and like, you could see all the grapes growing. It's like very, very, very pretty and very like, you know, so Napa Valley, right. And so it's like so, so characteristic of the area and it's not very crowded, so, you know, it wasn't such a big production and like, and you, you can just like show up and go to the expo and like, you know, have some, uh, pasta the night before and just like show up at like 7:00 AM It's, it's awesome.

Yeah. There's something to be said about that. I've never done a small marathon, so I'll 26.2. Yeah. Well, Marine Corps. Oh yes, indie, monumental Chicago and New York. Those are the four that I've done and I've done Chicago four times, so that's how I get up to seven marathons. But I've never done like a smaller race.

Certainly here where I live in Carmel, Indiana, we have a marathon that's continued to grow, but it's not huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, nice and flat in April. So anybody's, they get about a spring marathon that's a little smaller. Yeah. How fun. Napa and then New York. What year did you run New York? Uh, so we did 2009.

Okay. And then I believe, I think I did it, uh, again in 2011. Um, so Oh, you've done it twice? Yeah. I was, I was lucky enough to get into the lottery twice, which I don't know how I did, but I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I'll do it. Uh, if I got it, I'll do it. So, um, yeah, we ran 2009, I think it was like the 40th anniversary of it, which was really fun.

And uh, you know, that's my hometown. So like Right. It was. I don't know. It, it is another part of me that was so emotional, just running 26.2. And you know, growing up I had like, no idea this goes on in the city. I was so oblivious. Right. Wow. Um, and, uh, you know, running through the neighborhoods, running through Central Park, running through all of five boroughs.

It was just, I mean, amazing to like be at home and do that. It was so cool. And I think I messaged this to you, but like, uh, Laura, we, we ran it and then we, we immediately flew to like a, a, a tech conference right after. Oh yeah. Yeah, you did. Because you're like, I've done that too. 'cause I was just reminiscing about flying to.

San Francisco right from Chicago. My friend Ashley and I both were going to Dreamforce and that was a bad idea, but that was before we were parents. So it's like, you know, at that time you're just worrying about yourself. It feels like that know whatever, but yeah, you know, like we're like wobbling around the booth.

Yeah. I still had, um, permanent marker on my arms. I don't know why. I think I wrote my name in permanent marker on my arms. Oh, sorry. In Chicago. Which to, yeah, to shout out to Pen and pastes for your bib kits. Yes, because if you, you need your name on your shirt if you're running a marathon. So pen and pastes.com has you covered because Yes.

Um, like my picture from the New York City marathon is literally me with like four sticky name tags and I wrote one letter of my name on each name tag and like. Packing taped it onto my shirt, like how Jan is that? But I wanted people to say my name. I have, people are very creative though. Yeah. You know, like it's funny.

Things like that. Or like duct tape or like, you know, they write like on their shirt and Yeah. You know, everybody, like, people are pretty creative. It is pretty funny. But yeah, like I don't wanna get my name like on my shirt because then I don't, I'm not gonna wear that shirt ever if it just says my name on it, you know?

It's kind of weird. So I feel like what you came up with is just such a easy, simple, like, comfortable way to have your name on your bib. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. So smart. I'm really excited about the, the yellow name BIB kits because Yeah. It's so great. It does solve a problem for, it really does. Yeah.

Um, and like, this was like the first time I was using it in a big race and like, right. Oh my gosh. Every time I heard it, it was like. Amazing. I like, I felt like I could run forever. Yeah. It's so nice. Yeah. My husband had shirts made for us for a Chicago marathon that we ran together and so it said, our names on it and they're hilarious.

But yeah, he just, like he said his arm was sore from, you can't, people can't see what I'm doing, but it's like, like fist bumping the air. 'cause he would just be like so excited the whole time. And so he was, his arm and shoulder was so sore from the race, which is just kind of funny. Usually your arms don't necessarily hurt, it's your legs, but you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so what other races, gimme a couple other ones that are like highlights. 'cause I'm sure you've done a lot and we probably can't talk about all of them. Yeah. Um, let's see. I, so I did four marathons, so New York twice Napa Valley, and then I did, uh, the DC rock and roll. Oh, cool. Um, which was also fun.

Um, you know, I would have to say like running also is such a great way to see Sightsee Yes. And go to a new place in like, explore many neighborhoods. But that was the way DC was, uh, my brother was living there at the time. He ran, um, the marathon with me. Well, with me. He was way faster than me, but he was there.

Yeah. Oh, that's fine. He was there. Um, but you know, you go through all the neighborhoods of DC um, and it, it is just also another very, very beautiful, um, place to be with all the monuments and, uh, all the different neighborhoods. Uh, you know, it was also beautiful and, and, and the rock and roll. You get all the music every mile.

So that's, you know, also something forward to every miles. So do they, do they still have the full, or is it only a half now? The DC Rock and roll. I, I can't recall. Can't I did it so long, long remember ago. I feel like it might, they might have changed it. I think they might have changed it. I can't remember, but I've done Marine Corps and it was kind of the same, like DC like you get to see all the monuments.

It was so cool. I loved that race. I, it's hard 'cause there's so many races that I wanna do, but there's, you know, the races I've done, I've really enjoyed and I would do again, um, I've gotta recruit you to come, you should come to Vegas with me. I'm doing the, um, the rock and roll half. They used to have a full in Vegas as well.

Oh nice. But now it's a half and it's like run the strip at night. It starts later in the day so that when you finish it's dark and all the lights in Vegas. I had a horrible race the last time. Oh, that's pretty. But I did it so I, I need redemption. But it's at the end of February, so you should come.

That'll be really fun. And if you think about it, you're running in the desert. Yeah. It's, I, I need, I need to do that race again so that it doesn't, that's in my mind. I like, don't like it because it was such a hard race for me. I don't know if it hot was just time of day. It wasn't even hot. It just was, I don't know.

It was cold actually. It was really chilly. I wore long sleeves. Weird. Anyway. Okay, so. That's really cool. Rock and roll was your other one. And how many halves have you done, do you know? Oh, I can't even, I've lost count now, I think. Okay. You know, over, over three or four dozen, I dunno. Okay. Like at one point we were doing like three or four a month when I, you know, yeah.

It was just like, you know, so fun to do and like, um, but you know, I, I, uh, reflect back and I feel like I didn't know how to train back then. It was just like running. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like all out. But, uh, you know, it was just like something to do on the weekends and, you know, um, again, we, I had no, uh, responsibility, almost no responsibility.

The weekends like, Hey, just wake up in the morning and go on a race and have French afterwards. But, um, yeah, it's a ton of race, but something I did do that was really fun, but also very like, tough logistically, but also mentally is, uh, a couple of 200 mile relays. Um, and so the, those are the ones where you have two bands, 12 runners.

Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, you run through the night for 24 hours. I did. Um, a couple in the Bay Area and one Ragner relay. Okay. Um, I would say those are really fun experiences if you like, really wanna get to know, like, the running community. They just can do some, some crazy things, but really fun. But like a lot of like logistical planning 'cause you have to like, recruit your runners, rent your vans.

Yeah, yeah. You know, stock the, the food and, but plus they like, also want you to recruit volunteers and so like, so that, you know, people are not like, uh, endangered throughout the night and Yeah. In the actual, um, you know, stations and stuff. So, um, that was actually pretty fun. And a, and a really like different, um, running experience endurance wise.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely interested in that. I wanna do a Ragnar at some point or some sort of relay. Um, yeah, because I do think that sounds really fun. Although, well now, you know, as you, as we talked about at the very beginning of this, as a mom, you're used to the lack of sleep or not sleeping great.

And it's like, sos mom rock. That's what we should do is a mom, like a full mom team. All the moms, we're gonna get all the moms, two vans of moms and we're gonna go. Yeah, that'd be so fun. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, oh my gosh. Yeah. That's really cool. So do you have any desire to do an ultra marathon or anything beyond a marathon?

Um. I'd say no right now. But never say never. You know, I, I didn't even think I would love running. But you know, I think there has been a, like a, a cohort of runners, especially masters runners who love the, like, trail, um, the trail scene. Yeah. Um, uh, and like the ultra running scene as well. And I don't know, like it's, it's kind of sparking a curiosity now, like, but it seems like it's just so long to run at one time.

Yeah. Right. I know. I, I someday maybe, who knows? Um, I'm not committing to anything. So we need to talk about how Pen and Pace has started and a little bit more about that. And then we gotta talk a little bit more about Chicago. Ooh, yes. Yeah. Okay. So pen and pastes actually didn't, uh, wasn't called pen and pastes at first.

So as another kind of, uh, challenge to myself to grow and learn new things, I wanted to start, uh, a side business. And so while I was, um, you know, again, working in California, I wanted to, you know, kind of explore what it's like to have my own business. But, you know, I was kind of, um, at a loss of like what I, what kind of business I wanted to start.

So, um, I actually challenged myself to learn art. Um. And I landed on calligraphy because I, you know, as, as a kid I actually really loved, um, like handwriting and pens and like gel pens and, and things like that. And so good. I was like, okay, well, you know, and I'll just kind of follow that thread. I don't know where it would go, but, and like, it's so like low risk for me to, you know, spend some time thinking about those things.

But I, I actually eventually loved doing that. And so, um, it's, my business started out as Smitty lettering. Okay. Um, spinning because of my last name, Smith and Lettering, because, uh, you know, I started doing calligraphy and, uh, I, I actually started doing, uh, a lot of wedding invitations and wedding, uh, related like envelopes and addressing and, uh, place cards.

'cause you know, like, I love weddings and like yeah. All those little details. I'm the, like, the type of person to appreciate all those little details that like the couple had, like, spent time doing. And I'm like, oh, I love that. And so I, uh, started the business doing, um, that on Etsy. Uh, and it, you know, it grew and I did a, a bunch of like, invitations and, uh, a bunch of orders for like bride space and things like that, but I was like kind of, uh, using my business mindset and just put my business hat on and I was like, the, the industry is so saturated.

Yeah. And, you know, um, the first thing about business is like, how did you differentiate yourself, right? And so. And so I'm like, I don't know how I differentiate myself with this. Like everybody has every permutation of like handwriting and cards and, you know, things like that. And so I was like, I don't know how I can do it.

So I, um, embarked in a journey of like seeing what else I can do. And at the time I was running and I said, you know, what are, what is out there that I can really provide that is different? And I wanted to go combine my love of running and this kind of art business, uh, that I had. And so I was like, Hey, I'll, I'll do that.

And that, that was like at the start of the pandemic in 2020. And so, okay. You know, we had a bunch of time. Loads of time Yeah. To try things out and I. I think that was kind of one of the silver linings of a pandemic is where, you know, I was able to explore and um, you know, just put stuff out there. And it started with stickers and it had cards.

I drew a bunch of maps, um, and uh, like, you know, drew using all the like, uh, the marathons. Yeah, there's so cool. Was able to put it out there and there was a lot of interest and so, uh, I just followed that interest and, and grew it from there from the very bottom. So Cool. Yeah. Now you have a website and now you have apparel and you do runner portraits.

And the bib kit we already talked about and like the gif sets that you have are so cute and I know you and I'll hopefully continue to collaborate. I always think about that and like ways to figure out how to best support each other. 'cause obviously we're in the same space, you know, technically competing I guess you could say, right?

Yeah. But it's like at the same time. Gosh. I mean, there's so many, so many people who love running and Absolutely. Um, I just absolutely love being able to support you in what you're doing. Yeah, likewise. Especially now that you're doing it all in, like there's something to be said now, like, all in, let's go.

I, I have to say you were a big inspiration for that. I'm like, oh, that's so good. And I like, I, you know, I was, I was very pretty hesitant, um, to be honest. 'cause, you know, I spent so much time in one thing, right? And, um, and this is a, a huge scary step. And I was like, what if I fail? What if people don't like it?

And I was like, and you were like. Just go do it. And like, you know, you can always go back to tech. And I was like, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yep. And, um, it, it, it was a kind of big consideration, but I, I think the thing that stayed in my mind is like, it's not a one way door. You know, I will still have like, the skills that I've, you know, I've acquired through my career.

And I, I also use my skills every day in this business. Yeah. So it's a really good way to like, keep that kind of part of me alive, but also, uh, gain new skills as well. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I think that was a, a big, a big decision and like, I think it, it, it's a big milestone in, in my career. Yeah. Well, congratulations.

Thank you. That's a big, it is a big ass milestone for sure. Yeah. And yeah, I just, uh, I love that. So let's talk about Chicago now, if that's okay. Yeah. 'cause I wanna make sure, I wanna know everything. I actually don't think I've talked to anybody that's run Chicago yet. Like any of my friends, like I haven't seen my friends that have run since the race.

I'll see some of them this weekend. Yeah. But yeah. How was your trip out there? Oh yeah. Like all the thing And you had these shirts, you had pen and pastes shirts, like I wanna know everything. Okay. Yes. Um. So I think I had this mindset of like, I am nine months, you know, at the time will be nine months postpartum.

I have a little baby and you know, and he's traveled maybe once before on a plane. And like, I was like, if I get to the start line I would be ecstatic because, you know, like people get sick. Like my husband could have got sick, right? Like the flights could have been terrible, I could have gotten sick. Uh, you know, anything could have happened.

Yeah. But that was a big thing on my mind. And then training also was a huge worry for me. 'cause I got sick multiple times. You did God. And, you know, dig your germs, you know, it's just, yeah. The worst. So hard. No, no contest. I got injured a little bit, um, and my back in, uh, once. And so, you know, I had to recover from that.

And so I was like, I don't know where I am physically like, like fitness wise, but if I could get one 20 miler uh, out there, I will, you know, mentally be ready. So I was able to get that done. And then talking to my coach and, you know, she's actually having had her third kid now and so she understood the kind of like postpartum mentality.

Mm-hmm. And so she's super understanding. So she's like, you know, just put, you know, do your best. You know, don't feel bad if you don't hit the pieces. Just like get it out there and get the big smiles. And so, you know, I listened to that a bunch. Um, so that was a bunch. And then I was incredibly for fortunate that my friends Lauren and Yeah, who are very best, they were gonna run Chicago, um, but decided that they wanted to pace me.

And I was like. I will take it. Uh, I love that idea. I don't know, like I've never been paced, but um, I was so incredibly lucky that both of 'em were open to doing that. So, uh, it's funny, uh, the story is that they were in, in Boston spectating for the Boston Marathon this year and I said, oh, I wanna do Chicago.

And they signed up for being my Pacers, and I was like, so excited. And then the, you know, RU was sharing a hotel and Ru told me that in the middle of the night, Lauren like popped up and said, I know what we can name ourselves, pen and pastes Pacers. Yeah. And so it was perfect, but, you know, and so, um, I was like, we're doing this, we're making sure it's, uh, you know, you guys can match and I'll, I'll have a matching, uh, shirt as well.

And so, um, you know, that's another dimension. I was like, you know, they're bringing their families and, you know, they, they could have, uh, you know, anything, you know. Pop up that prevents 'em from running. Mm-hmm. But they were very healthy. They were like, they were super pumped. And we met each other at the, you know, the expo and then the start line.

We did a shakeout, and then we were able to go to the start line and like, like, have a great time. And the other thing was like the weather, you know, Chicago could be, could be anything. Like actually leading up to Chicago, like maybe two days before it was a heat wave. So I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, please.

So I, you know, anything could happen. So I had, I was ready mentally that anything could happen to, you know, if I would, if I could start the race, I was gonna be really happy. And if I could finish the race, I was also, you know, gonna be really happy. But turned out that the, the weather was perfect. Uh, I think it was like 46 degrees.

Oh my gosh. Sharp. Yeah. And like. Perfect overcast throughout all the spectators ca came out. It was so loud, like amazing. I was able to see my family, my husband and my son were in like my 13 Lauren and Boo's family were all throughout, um, the race. And then I saw my, my family at the end and I felt fantastic the whole time.

I, I, I was, the first time I did the carb loading, I think it was like the featherston carb loading program where you carb load for three days before like lots of carbs. And I, I am now a believer, like I could, I did not hit the wall. I felt really good. I was pretty consistent through throughout the time, so.

The pacing was amazing. Lauren Vu did an amazing job. Like vu, like grabbed water for me. Lauren like, uh, shouted out my paces and like, told me to slow down when I was going too fast or, you know, speed up when I was going too slow. Yeah. You know, in Chicago, your GPS you, you just don't know if it's gonna work.

Um, and so it was amazing to have them there and just to like, see them beside me and like, they, they were the ones who actually spotted my family. And so I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And like, I, like, I, I try not to cry like at mile 13, but I, I like had those like bumpy emotions seeing your baby.

That's like, yeah. Yeah. And so I would say it like a race of a lifetime. It's gonna be hard to beat. I had like, uh, the most amazing friends who paced me, like the weather was amazing. My family was there. Uh, I felt great health wise, so I couldn't complain. Well, and then you're le leaving out this like tiny part that you PRD by 33.

Just in case you didn't understand that, I said 33 minutes for a marathon. Yes. So like, let's do some math here. That's more than a minute per month. That's insane, Cindy. Yeah. After a baby, like with a nine month old with a training cycle that like kept like wanting to beat you down with this sickness. I swear every time I saw an Instagram story from you, you were sick.

I know. And I'm like, poor Cindy. I felt like you're one of those people who are like, I'm constantly sick. I'm like, oh, like poor Cindy is just like not able to get this in and and you absolutely crushed it. And your friends like God bless them for their support and being there like literally arm in arm with you throughout that race.

Like how cool you should be and I'm sure you are so incredibly proud. That is so awesome. I, I couldn't be more happy. Uh, yeah, because my last marathon, like was about 10 years ago and in DC and, you know, since then I wanted to run a marathon, but just like I've gotten to, you know, um, in the way, like, just, just takes a lot of time to train.

Yeah. Um, and I actually got into Chicago, uh, before the pandemic and was gonna run it in 2020. Oh, but you obviously deferred. Yeah. And then I deferred it. Deferred it, and like deferred it. So many times I was like, I gotta do this. Yeah. Before I just keep, yeah. Yeah, they wouldn't let me defer it anymore. So, um, it was a good kind of forcing function for me to train ah, uh, during this, uh, period of time.

And yeah, it's been 10 years and like, you know, again, I don't think I knew how to train in the right way 10 years ago. Same. Exactly. You know, you, I was able to like, take my easy runs easy, like do actual quality sessions. Mm-hmm. Like long run, right. Uh, hydrate and nutrition, uh, like what work kind of way better than 10 years ago. Um, and so I, I couldn't be happier. It's like 33 minutes and now like my call, I like in my hearts of parts, I didn't tell many people, but like I really wanted to like break four. Right, right. Like that's like a, a thing, right? Yeah. And great thing to see one out there. I was like incredibly happy. Yeah. 3 51.

I mean, you got crushed four hours. Like, well, I mean, I, the, my most previous guest, uh, just right before this hemanchu who ran Berlin, he got a three and a half minute pr and That's insane. That's a lot of time. I was reading it too. Yeah. But then you're like, they're over like a half hour. That's just so amazing.

I think it's, I mean, this podcast has kind of become a commercial for run coaching un like unintentionally, but I feel like I can't say enough good things about actually training the right way because I've run so many races that I, and like you have too, where I didn't know how to train. I'd just go out and run four miles as fast as I could be done with it.

But I do that every day and yeah. Yeah. So shout out to Rachel Senders, my coach here, she's an indie. Absolutely. But yeah, I mean, it really is a thing and I have to look into that carb loading thing. I've, I just usually, I don't do much. Really the week leading up, I try to drink more water, which I always am trying to do.

And I definitely eat like pizza the night before, like get some carbs. But I'm interested in that, so I'll have to Oh yeah, you should definitely look at it. And it uhhuh, it sounds a little intense and crazy at first 'cause you're like eating something like 400, 500 grams of carbs every, every, every day.

Sounds great to me. I'm like, give me a reason. Okay. You cry. Carb lover. But like, yeah. It's like, you know, it's a lot of bagels, a lot of like, you know, but you drink some of that too. Yeah. And uh, um, when you're doing it, it feels like you're overload. You're just like, I can't, I can't imagine having so many carbs, but on the day of, you're just feeling great.

Like, you, you feel a little dody at first, but you are running, you know Yeah. Three and a half, four hours and you know you're gonna burn all that off, right? Yeah. So yeah, I highly commend it. Yeah. Are you gonna run a full next year? That's like the next question. I want to run another one at some point. I just dunno when.

Yeah. I'm in the same boat. Yeah. Yeah. Um, next year sounds pretty good. I, I just went on a walk with, uh, my friend Jane and we're like, which, which, which ones? Right. I do like, you know, like, it, there's so many and it's just, just so all so exciting. But Philly could be a cool, cool one. Yeah. Um, which is a little bit closer here.

Um, but like, CIM also also seems really fun, but mm-hmm. Like very, like travel a a lot of travel from us. Yeah. But no, not committing yet, but certainly I have the bug. Yeah. I know. It's just so hard as, you know, with young kids, it's kind of like, I'm like. I really wanna do more FOSS and more races, and it's just, you know, it's hard to fit it in.

And so, I don't know, like I said, I have Vegas early next year. I have a couple other halves locally that I typically do every year, but I, I've never run a spring marathon. I've only ever done fall marathons, which is weird because I don't really run in heat very well. And so I've only ever trained in the summer, so why haven't I trained in the winter for a spring marathon?

I don't know. But I don't know. I have so much fomo too, as, you know, like you're, you're on Instagram a lot for your business and it's just constantly just people running marathons. And it like makes me, I know wanna run all the time, but I know that, I know it's, it's a, yeah, it's hard to ignore because you're like, oh, this is like this, these are my people and like, you wanna know what they're doing and I wanna do that too.

Yeah. And we're in our peak years, Cindy, like these years, like you see like masters. You know, that kind of, there's an opportunity there to get really fast before you kind of are on the other side. And so I'm kind of got that itch a little bit. So we shall see. I hear you. But I, uh, I wanna ask, I just asked kind of one of my end of podcast questions unintentionally already.

Okay. Because we talked about what's your next finish line? So we kind of took, covered that, but because I need to go pick up my daughter Slo Yeah. To take her, we're doing infant swimming lessons, so I don't know if you've looked into that for Archer, but so far I've been really excited about it. It's very intense.

We actually just talked about that we wanna do some sort of swim class. 'cause I'm not a swimmer, but I, I want him to be a swimmer. Right. I just want like the safety net too, of like, if she falls in water, she can float. Yeah. So that's kind the idea. But you know, we go to the lake in the summer. My parents now have a place in Florida, so it's like, okay.

Anyway, so I gotta go to get her, but, okay. So I wanna ask what your favorite mantra or song is. Okay. Um, I had to think of really hard, like I had to think really hard about this one because I have to choose one. But, um, there, there's 2, 2 2 songs. One is the Eminem eight Mile song. Mm. It's like classic Pump You Up song.

Yeah. Or second one. The um, this is a very popular like Sports one, but like, uh, zombie Nation, you know, it's kind of like a rave one. Uh, but those are like two songs that anytime it comes up on the radio or in my, like on Pandora or something, it's like a great running one. Interesting. I don't know. So Eminem from Eight is, which song is that?

Lose Yourself. Lose Yourself. Okay. Sorry, I Clear. I know I should know, but I love that song. I love Eminem. And then Zombie Nation, is that the name of the song or the name of the band? That's the name of the band. And then I think the song is called Current Craft 400. Okay. But you've heard it goes interesting.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I got you. Okay. Oh, the sports song. Totally. Yes, yes, yes. Here we are. Now I have a microphone. You got me this sing on a podcast. Big thing. Sorry everyone. It's so funny. I really do actually love singing karaoke. So when I hold this microphone like this without a stand, which people again can't see, it makes me feel like I could sing, but I will not.

Okay. So, and then what about mantras? Do you have any? Um, I think these change for me, 'cause I don't have like one that, like, I keep saying to myself, but every time I see things like, you know, on Instagram or like what, what people say on their captions, I like some of them really resonate for with me.

Mm-hmm. Um, uh, I would say the one that I love of your shop is the run the mile that you're in. Yeah. I love that one. And then the o then the second one, which, uh, I feel like more recently really resonates with me is that you get to do this. Yes. Yes. Like, I love that one. You know, I'm very luck, incredibly lucky.

Especially like now that we have, um, a baby and things like that. Just like I, like even if I don't want to, uh, go out for a run and I get to mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's a win. Yeah. Amen. I've picked up some new ones kind of 'cause of this podcast. 'cause I ask everybody, I'm like, this is great. Now I get to like selfishly get all these new mantras, but like some recent ones like are um, dig in.

Like, dig in. I really like, um, and I forget where I heard this. This wasn't on a podcast, what was it from? But pain cave. Sounds really weird. Ooh. Pain cave. But like I've heard, maybe it was a book I read recently, like talking about the pain cave. Like, you wanna live in that cave? You gotta learn how to live in the pain cave.

And when you're in the cave, you gotta be in the cave and just Yep. Get through it. And so I think about that a lot, which sounds kind of funny, but like, you know, there's, there's so many good things to say and so I'm trying to say better things to myself because there's also a lot of negative thoughts that creep into my mind.

So the more mantras I can have, like at the ready, the better. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's funny, like running makes you enjoy the pain a little bit, right? Yeah. Like, enjoy it. You get to have the pain, like, you know, you're alive, you can feel pain. This is what you're, you choose to do this.

Yeah. And you're choosing to do this. You're paying a lot of money to do this. Yes. Yeah. Some of like the signs you see, like from spectators, some of that, it's like, I love them. You paid for this. And it's like, oh yes. How weird is that, that, you know? So, oh my gosh. So did you get to see Archer Wright at the finish line of Chicago?

Him. So they're in Chicago this year. They did something new where they actually have a, um. Separate area where there's like bleachers where the families could pay to be in that area. Um, interesting. And it's reserved for them. So I, when I saw that come through, I was like, I'm doing this for my husband and an archer.

And, and so, uh, they were able to like sit there and, you know, um, just kind of wait for us and, you know, have like a seat and things like that. Uh, so I was able to see them as I like sprinted to the finish. Oh. Which is really cool. And then, so Cool. And they had to head to kind of the finisher area and like family meetup area and so I like wobbled over there and Yeah.

Was able to see them at the end. So. You know, we debated, uh, like my husband and I debated a ton about them coming because Yeah. A, you know, Roger's young and like, I will be like gone for like, so much of the time running and things like that. Yeah. But ultimately decided that they would come and I'm so grateful for it and like, yeah.

You know, my husband, um, did a great job doing, you know, just being there alone. Yeah. And it was unparalleled. I couldn't imagine not seeing them at this end of this marathon. Like, you know, I'm like tearing up as I think about it. I know. It's so special. Um, I'm really great. Yeah. Yeah. My husband had my girls at the halfway point of the marathon that I ran last year in Indie and it was like, yeah, like so emotional, just seeing them standing out there, especially since the weather that marathon was horrible.

I was like, oh my gosh, thank you for being there, but it means a lot. So What's that? Um, that was the Indy monumental. Oh, I see The weather's looking better. It's already in the, so I'm doing a race this Saturday half, and then I'm doing another half the following Saturday. And um, so both of the races are in the weather forecast, so I'm like crazy.

Okay. So I think there needs to be an episode where somebody interviews you 'cause you've done what, like 50 something marathon, a half marathon. Yeah. Oh my God. It'll happen at some point. It will Jamica who was on this show, she said the same thing to me and she goes, I wanna interview you. And I was like, yeah.

Okay. We'll see. We'll see when that we do. Okay. I like thoroughly enjoyed your intro, um, episode Nice. Where you talked about how you ran on the treadmill with a, a textbook, so Yeah. You know, crazy. I'm crazy. I'm a crazy runner just like everyone else. I mean, I love it. I, well, I'm here for it. Uh, well, thank you for taking this time to talk with me, especially when you could be sleeping.

No, thank you for having me. It's so fun. I appreciate you and I appreciate your support, so, so, so much. So thank you. Oh, likewise. Being there for me. Um, love supporting women-owned businesses and runners. Of course. Yeah. Amen. All right, well thank you everybody for listening and hope you have a good weekend and happy running.

Thank you.

Ally Brettnacher