Episode 68: TJ Dailey - Don't Quit in the Chair

Episodes

Aug 9

Listener note: This episode includes discussion of compulsive eating and a parent's terminal illness and death.

TJ Dailey went from 250 pounds to a 2:48 marathon, founded Meshingomesia Track Club, and built the Full Mo 50K and Prairie on Fire backyard ultra in central Indiana.

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About this episode

TJ Dailey is the founder of MTC, Meshingomesia Track Club, a group born in Grant County, Indiana and named for a Miami chief from the Marion area. MTC puts on the Full Mo, a 31-mile run down the entire Monon Trail, and Prairie on Fire, a backyard ultra at Koteewi Park that went from seven signups to selling out 100 spots. TJ has struggled with his weight since high school, was up to 250 pounds in 2012, and went on to run a 100-miler in 2013 and a 2:48 marathon PR in 2023.

We talk about the backyard ultra format and the rule "don't quit in the chair," his honest struggle with food, coaching from Karl Meltzer, and what it was like helping Cameron Balser run more than 11,000 miles around the perimeter of the United States. TJ also shares his daughter Caitlin's 750-day running streak, tips for a first Ragnar, and running for his mom, who died of multiple system atrophy three weeks before his marathon PR.

In this episode, we discuss

Donating 18 months of used running shoes, including a pile of carbon racers
How to pronounce Meshingomesia and why MTC may rebrand
Growing MTC from six or seven friends in Grant County to a club with members around the country
The Full Mo 50K down the entire Monon Trail and its smoked-pork finish line
How a backyard ultra works and why runners should never quit in the chair
Gaining weight from 145 pounds in ninth grade to 250 before getting back into running in 2012
Going from a Monumental marathon in 2012 to a 100-miler in August 2013
Eating like an addict, a high A1C and cutting back on sugar
Why he loves the treadmill, including a 22-mile treadmill run in Montreal
Coaching from Karl Meltzer and using lactate threshold training at 45
Helping Cameron Balser run 11,130 miles around the U.S. and The Speed Project
His daughter Caitlin's running streak of about 750 days
Ragnar and Hood to Coast advice on food, pinch points and sleep
His mantra "you're not going to die" and getting comfortable with discomfort
His mom's MSA diagnosis, the MTC 5150 fundraiser and running every road in Carmel and Westfield

Chapters

Intro
A giant bag of used shoes
How to say MTC and where the name comes from
How MTC grew
The Full Mo 50K
Prairie on Fire and the backyard ultra format
From 250 pounds back to running
Ultras and a first 100-miler
Struggling with food and loving the treadmill
Karl Meltzer and lactate threshold training
Cameron Balser and The Speed Project
Running as a dad and Caitlin's streak
Ragnar and Hood to Coast tips
Mantra: you're not going to die
Running for his mom
Running every road with CityStrides

Where to find TJ

Instagram: Tha Question
Meshingomesia Track Club (MTC)

Mentioned in this episode

Races: Full Mo 50K, Prairie on Fire Backyard Ultra, CNO Financial Indianapolis Monumental Marathon, HUFF 50K, Seattle Marathon, Boston Marathon, Last Annual Vol State Road Race, Barkley Marathons, Hardrock 100, Old Dominion 100, Potawatomi Trail Runs, The Speed Project, Ragnar Michigan, Hood to Coast, Rock 'n' Roll Arizona Marathon, Prefontaine Classic, MTC 5150, 8 Hour Dream, Sam Costa Half Marathon
Organizations and charities: Meshingomesia Track Club (MTC), Koteewi Park, Knobstone Trail, New Shoe Day, Orangetheory Fitness, Strava, CityStrides
Other: Born to Run by Christopher McDougall, Karl Meltzer, Cole Hocker, Laz Lake, Harvey Lewis, David Goggins 4x4x48 challenge, On Coaching podcast with Steve Magness and Jonathan Marcus, Ultra (Cameron Balser film), Multiple system atrophy (MSA), "The Pretender" by Foo Fighters, "Kickstart My Heart" by Mötley Crüe

Previous guests mentioned

Related episodes

Frequently asked

What does MTC stand for in Indiana running?

MTC stands for Meshingomesia Track Club, founded by TJ Dailey and friends from Grant County, Indiana and named for a Miami chief from the Marion area; the club puts on the Full Mo 50K and Prairie on Fire backyard ultra.

What is a backyard ultra?

As TJ Dailey explains, a backyard ultra is a 4.167-mile loop that runners start every hour on the hour until only one is left, which adds up to 100 miles in 24 hours, and his Prairie on Fire race at Koteewi Park uses this format.

What is the Full Mo?

The Full Mo is a roughly 31-mile ultramarathon produced by TJ Dailey's MTC that runs the entire Monon Trail from Sheridan to downtown Indianapolis, held the weekend after Memorial Day.

Who coached Cameron Balser before his run around the United States?

TJ Dailey has worked with Cameron Balser since 2017 and helped support him as he ran 11,130 miles around the perimeter of the United States, going through 27 pairs of shoes.

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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically, so it may contain errors.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones with Allie Brettnacker. Incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals and fitness. This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets. Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting athletebouquets.com. Hello and welcome to episode 68. This is Allie Brettnacker. And as you may have heard an episode or two ago, I did pull the trigger and sign up to run a full marathon this fall, Indy Monumental in Indianapolis IN November 9th. So I'm officially in marathon training. And of course, my first long run after signing up was a truly humbling experience. I had a 12 mile workout that included some speed and while the temperature was much cooler than days past have been here in the Indy area, it was still so humid and it made me second guess whether or not I should have signed up for the race.

But I also know that not every run can be amazing and it'll be fine. So I hope that I'm not alone in having the worst run after signing up for marathon. I know I'm not a couple races. If you listen to this the day it comes out Friday August 9th. There are two races on August 10th that I want to make sure you're aware of because you can do them virtually. So if you already have a workout on the calendar, sign up to support these causes and then just do them as part of your workout or just do a 5K on your own. So one is called that 5K.

My guest, Christina Hook recently was on the podcast and she talked about her late sister Tori Cook, who lost her battle with mental illness in January of 2022. And they have a 5K to honor her. This is the second year they're doing it. It is at 9:00 AM at Washington Township Park in Avon. I'm hoping to be there with my girls in person, but I've already signed up virtually as well. And then the other race is New Shoe Day. Casey Kraus was on this podcast along with Nate Spangle and Carly Stewart, all who are involved in this amazing organization. And if you go to their website, newshoeday.org, you can sign up to run virtually or you can show up at Athletic Annex in Nora at 8:00 AM tomorrow, August 10th to support them.

If you're like me as well, you've probably been watching the Olympics the last couple of weeks. I'm kind of sad to see them end. I've gotten so much inspiration and energy from watching, especially indie native Cole Hawker win gold in his race, the 1500. It was so fun to watch. I also just watched Noah race with COVID in the men's 200 and Sydney run, you know, another world record. It was just really fun to watch. All these athletes, especially the women, just completely dominate in these Olympic Games. Super fun. Wish I was there. And then to segue into this week's episode, Cameron Balzer from Indiana, he is a Mishanga Misha track club athlete, and he just ran around the perimeter of the United States.

So there's a film coming out August 23rd. You've got to watch it. It's called Ultra. It's a team sport. I've got a sneak peek and it's excellent. So you will want to be sure it's August 23rd is the premiere, but I'm not sure of the details. So keep an eye on my Instagram, which is actually different now. I am Ally ALOYT, Brett Brett under score runs and so I'll be sharing information there. Of course, if you want to follow this week's guest on Instagram, I am lucky enough to have interviewed TJ daily. He is the question THA question on Instagram and TJ is the founder of MTC Mishanga Misha Track club.

He gave me a lesson and I've been practicing the correct pronunciation. It has a very cool history, so you'll understand why that's the name, but perhaps won't be the name in the future. We shall see. Lot to come from MTCI. Just love getting to know TJ. I'd met him briefly in the past, but I've certainly known of him and he has a ton of amazing stories and I am so inspired by TJ and very grateful that he came on the show. So thank you, TJ, and I hope everybody enjoys this conversation. Let's go. Let's go. Welcome TJ Daly. Thanks. I feel like you're like Carmel Westfield running.

Royalty. Oh please. I'm happy to be here though. I'm excited. Thank you for being here. Yeah, I remember the first time I met you. You probably don't remember this, but I worked at Fleet Feet for a year part time and I remember you came in with the biggest bag of. Used. Shoes I've ever seen in my life. And I was like, OK, this guy puts in some miles. Holy crap. I do remember that, I do. I do remember bringing that bag in. That was probably 18 months worth of shoes for sure. Which is what you said. And I thought, what? Well, my mind couldn't really, I understand.

But now that I've gotten to know you a little bit better, at least from afar, in looking at all the stuff you've done now, it's not as surprising. Well, but it's still insane that you went through that many shoes in 18 months. I love shoes. Yeah. And then it was so kind of you to come then donate them. You're like here. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I remember that. And and you know, the shoe, the shoe thing is, is kind of an obsession. So I'm, I'm one of those people that, you know, you have your people, a mutual friend of ours, Christy D, who like they find a model and that's it for life.

I remember when she switched over to the Nova Blast, how big of a deal that was for her. I don't think I've worn a pair of shoes back-to-back in 10 years. So it's always something new, different technology, different brand, different, you know, use case scenario. That's why there's such a plethora of shoes out there, yeah. Do you have? Well, I guess since you donate them, you don't save them necessarily. I just picture this shrine at your House of like this room of every shoe, but you probably have to have a closet for all your shoes. I did actually the, I don't know if I'd call it painful, but the most interesting donation was the last one.

I donated all the carbon, so it was like I walked in and, you know, all the way back to the original 4 Percenters, 4 Percenters, Next Percenters, Vapor Flies, Alpha Flies, you know, Saucony, Endorphin Elites, Audios, Pro Threes. So that was the big donation as of recent because you want to hold on to those. Those are expensive shoes. And you feel like, gosh, I should keep them around and use them for maybe harder workouts. But I parted ways with all of those because my closet is overflowing with shoes. Yeah. Yeah, expensive is right. I think about just, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's so much money for all the shoes.

My daughter is, she just got into, she's a very tiny girl for her age and she's just now getting into women's size fives. OK, and finally can go to a running store. Right. And so and now it's not the endorphin kids. It's like, Daddy, can I have a pair of vapor flies for racing And that's where, you know, they say running is like the least expensive of the sports. But if we get into that. Side of things. Yeah, right. Does she have a running watch yet? She does. OK, See. Yeah. Wow. We're going to talk more about her later. What's her name? Caitlin. Caitlin. And how old is she?

She's ten. Wow. Oh my gosh, Caitlin. So I want a lesson on how to pronounce MTC for everybody. And I even like see the phonetic pronunciation, but I just feel like I need to know. I need to learn so that when I say it, I sure butcher the heck out of it and tell us like what it is, where that name comes from. Everybody butchers it as recent as the eight hour dream, Todd Oliver got up and it was I just I yelled out. Just say MTC. So it is meshinga Misha. That is how we grew up pronouncing it. It could be meshinga Misha, but meshinga Misha so it's mesh ING O Misha.

OK, Meshinga Misha. Boom. So that's it. Misha. Misha, where it came from. So we, the club itself was born in Grant County. There were six or seven of us. It started like eight or nine years ago, 8-8 years ago. And what is you said Grant County, where is Grant County? So. It's like NE, it's like Marion Gas City Converse, Swayze Suites are like all up in that area. So about an hour northeast of here. So that's kind of a throwback. So the original name was a name and this is kind of all full circle. And then we'll talk about this other thing later. But the the name itself is that of a Miami, Miami Indian chief from the area.

And he was prominent in the area in the 1900s. He lived until he was like 98 years old. They named a Country Club after him. And so growing up, a lot of us either went there or lived close to there or worked there. So when we decided to name our club, instead of naming it something like geographically relevant like Marion Track Club or Marion Running Club, we're like, oh, this is a little bit of a, you know, if you know, you know kind of thing. And we didn't expect it to become what it has. So we will probably rebrand soon just because there are some other things we want to start to pull in.

We're looking at Mesh TC instead of Mishanga Misha. But for the time being, we're going to keep it as it is. And that's how you pronounce. It mishanga Misha. There you go. It's not, I mean, it's really not that hard. I think it's like the the end of it, like just confuses you. And believe me, as somebody who has a company called Athlete Bouquets, like I get athletic boutiques, like all kinds of different stuff. So it's just like, OK, naming is hard. And yeah. Michigan, Amisha. Athlete bouquets. FOMO award producer. Extraordinary. Yes, thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that. Oh, it's. So dope.

I appreciate everybody loves those. Yeah. It's fun. I mean, I think part of me is like, well, who needs another mug? And then it's like you weren't put blood, sweat and tears into that. And so then it's like the first one that you grab out of the cupboard. Oh I love it. You get the post where people are like it feels so good to drink coffee out of something I earned. Yes, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, for sure. Yes. So you are the founder or at least one of the founders. Are you the sole founder of MTC Mishanga Misha? I, I will, I will try not to do this today, but I really like to shine a light on kind of the other people.

I would say that it was kind of my brainchild, but there were, you know, 5-6, seven of us that really made-up that initial group and then it's kind of grown from there. That's so cool. And now I feel like you're everywhere and like literally too, with members all over the country. So walk us through kind of how it started and what you're today and kind of where you're looking to go. And then I certainly want to learn just a lot more about you, TJ, and your running journey too. Sure. So the club itself, it started in 2016 and it was really just kind of wanting to formalize something.

You know, we had all of these people that were we grew up with, which is strange. You know, you come from a town of what is now probably 30 to 40,000 and Marion is kind of your typical small town. Grant County is kind of your typical small area where everybody moves away. And so for everybody to move away and then come back together around and during sports was kind of unique. So it's like, all right, let's start to formalize this again. It was six or seven people and having all of these really unique approaches to the sport and endurance athletics in in and of itself is kind of what has allowed us to grow.

It really jumped off with we have a local guy, you've probably heard the name Caleb Chambers, and Caleb is very active on Strava and Caleb is not afraid if you see somebody running by his house, like jump out and talk to him. So he started to develop, talk to them. So he started to develop this like network here in Carmel. And then, you know, that helped grow Hamilton County. And then, you know, other brothers that are still in Marion, my brother Trent's in Marion, my brother Todd's down here. They're part of the community and it's just kind of grown from there. And then some of the other people that have helped us grow.

So you talked about different states. We do a lot of relay races. And so at times, because, you know, maybe we're looking to go for a masters record, we might have to pull somebody from out of state that's, you know, 1° of separation away. But one of the people who's helped us gain gain exposure is Anthony Bruns, who lives out in Denver. We all grew up together. I've known Anthony. We were born in the same hospital four months apart and he is one of the top five masters athletes in the country. He currently holds the Colorado State soil records for masters in the mile, the half in the full.

So, you know, his accomplishments have helped us gain notoriety and and so it's just grown that way. And then of course, the last one I'll mention, I think we mentioned her potentially already was Christie. I met Christie in Orangetheory and we know she's like the epicenter of, you know, running in Hamilton County. So that helped us grow even more. And then the races and here we are. So, you know, that's where we're at today. In the future, you know, we have a couple more race ideas from a production standpoint, but really part of the idea behind the transition from Michigan, Michigan to Mesh. We don't want to be viewed as a traditional track club or traditional running club kind of like, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have your fisheries, your Carmel, your Westfield, whatever.

We want to provide things that bring all of those clubs together. We don't want to be looked at as competition or you know, it's US versus them. We want to, we want to put things out there. We want to again like produce races that all of the run clubs can join and and look at delivering things like you kind of do with your business that all of the run clubs can take advantage of and bring them together. That's kind of. I love that. And so do you have, do people like pay a membership fee to be part of MTC? No, it's, it's really, you know, it's really informal.

It's join our club on Trava. There's 110 members or something like that. You know, there are some things we're going to do. We I I attempted at one point to formalize the website a little bit more and list out all of our members and some of their accomplishments, but it got a little overwhelming. Yeah. You know, yeah, that right. You're like, oh, and I could like link to their and then you're like, Oh my gosh, this is going to take me weeks to do. So hopefully one of these days. Yeah. No, I understand that completely. So you have how many events today that you organize?

So there's two events we organize. My brother's actually organizing another event not under MTC. It's coming up here August 17th up at Cool Creek Park. But yeah, we have FOMO and we have Prairie on Fire. Those are two events. And then we're looking at another ultra we were going to do this fall and maybe next fall down South Knobstone Trail. And I have no problems talking about that. I don't care if someone wants to steal an idea. But you know, if we can execute this, it will more than likely be the hardest ultra in the Midwest. Okay, yeah, I don't know anything about Knobstone Trail.

What what drew me to Knobstone Trail was the fact that the most remote point in Indiana is on Knobstone Trail. So the hardest point, the hardest geographical point to get to in the entire state is on the end of that trail. That's cool. It's 50 miles, so would be an out and back and you know, 14,000 or 20,000 or something like that. Is it in the in the vertical gain realm, which is crazy. You know, people think about well, you have races out in Colorado like hard rocked. It's got 32,000 feet of gain. The difference is in Colorado it switchbacks. So you're going, you know, up the mountain, switching back and forth.

In the Midwest, as you've seen like the Barclay marathons, it's straight up the hill. We don't have the back and forth thing. So it's, it can be a lot more intense than some of those races out there. Now, of course, you're not at altitude doing that, but instead of a 3% grade, it's a 15% grade, you know? Wow. So you said out and back 50, is it 50 out? And then you come back for a total of 100, correct. Yeah, Jeez. And then the full MO is the full Monon Trail 31 point, What is it, 31.2? Something like that. And so you start up in Sheridan and people run the entire Monon all the way downtown.

When what year was that started? 2019 This was the 5th year. That's right. OK. Yeah, fifth year. So it's down to Westfield, that little out and back there in Westfield, which gives people an extra restroom and able to hit one aid station twice and then it's straight down the Monon from there. And I love it because, and I think other people do, number one, it's slightly downhill the whole way. That's nice. And then, of course, you get to see every single environment that you would experience in Indiana, right? You start in the cornfields and then you work your way through the suburbs and then like the cultural area when you get into Broad Ripple, and then more industrial, and then you're downtown.

So you can experience kind of everything Indiana has to offer. Yeah. And then it ends at like bottlework, that area which is such a cool part of downtown. Yeah, you've got the garage right there. Yeah, Bottleworks Hotel. So it works perfectly. We may sooner than later kind of go comrade style and potentially flip it. So you'd finish in Sheridan. There's benefits and and of course, the, the benefit would be that the last 8 miles is shaded versus what it is today where you're just in the in the heat of it, but there is the slight kind of incline, but we're talking Indiana. Yeah, 2 or 300 feet, right.

So yeah, a lot of that is just more mental than the actual. Right. Yeah. Yeah, just thinking, oh, now I have to go up and it's like, well, OK, barely. I feel like I've heard you talk on other podcasts that you may be doing this here soon. I would love to do it. I think as I think about ultras, it sounds so daunting to do, You know, you think, Oh, my gosh, a marathon, 26, two. And then I got to go run this many more miles. Well, I used to say that about going from 1/2 marathon to a full marathon, right? It's like, well, you train to go the extra miles.

And for me, I love the Monon Trail. For anybody who's not local, it's this nice paved path. It used to be literally like a rail trail through Indiana. And yeah, it's just great. I spent so many miles on the Monon running as many locals do. So I'm thinking OK for my first ultra it would be perfect. Let's lock it in. Let's just cross our fingers that we don't have crazy construction on the Monon. Oh, see, yeah, that's got to be your biggest challenge. The first, the first year we had it all planned out, we were good to go. My brother and Christie's husband Rob, were going to kind of manage the finish line, and they got down there and that was the week they had started construction with I-70.

And they got down there and you couldn't get to the end of the Monon. So we had to change the course on the fly, like an hour before people got to finish. And then it was, I believe the next year or the year afterward, they're doing all that work in Carmel. And so we had to have this crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, I, I've heard that they're thinking about and hopefully sooner than later, but I don't think anytime in the immediate future doing that pedestrian bridge over 86th, which would be awesome. Oh my gosh, I always avoid going that way because I don't like, I just don't like crossing 86th, so I'll just go.

Yeah. So hopefully they do that and then hopefully a bridge under 161st because that's super dangerous. Those would be super dangerous relative to other. But those cars are flying. Yeah, everybody wants to get on that Interstate. Just yeah, they're just flying up there and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, please don't kill me. And then Prairie on Fire is coming up next month. What's the date on that for this year? September 7th. September 7th and. The easy way to remember the dates of our events is Prairie is going to be the weekend after Memorial Day weekend or excuse me, Labor Day weekend. Yep, and full most always the weekend after Memorial Day.

OK, Yeah. Oh, that's kind of that is easy to remember. Yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit about Prairie on Fire. Wow, this is really become something unique. I was, you know, I did one of Laz Lakes. So Laz is the guy who's the brainchild behind the Barclay Marathons, behind the Backyard Ultra format and other things. He has another race, a couple of races, but one of them is the last annual of Allstate, which is a multi day race across Tennessee. I did it back in 2015, kind of got exposed to Laz and was like, hey, let's do something in Indiana. And so right around the time that grind on the grid which you had.

Oh yeah? Well, Trina, Trina was on. Yes. And then who are you thinking is someone else? No, her partner. Bob. Bob started. Runs grind. On the grid, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So right around the same time, I think we, we both had the same idea and it was interesting because, you know, we wanted to do something with Hamilton County parks. This ties back to the Michigan Mission name, so the name Katiwi, which is the park that we hold it at now is Miami Indian for Prairie on Fire. So it's kind of cool that that that that's why it's named what it is. And it's such a it's such AI guess an appropriate name because it could be extremely hot September 7th in Indiana and it's run in a Prairie.

So, you know, the first year we were working with them and it was really difficult. They didn't want to do anything in that particular parks. We did it in Morris Reservoir, the park at Morris Reservoir. And I tell this story and I think this is relevant for anybody who wants to start producing events. The 1st event had like seven people sign up. So I had to call the MTC crew and I was like, yo, I need you guys to come out. So like this feels like a race. And so we had about 20. A little more than half were MTC. The next year we had fifty.

This year we sold out four months in advance. And we have a which is how many? People 100 right now. Yeah. And so the park, the format. So I would say that a lot of people who listen to this, there's certainly a variety of runners, there's probably a lot of people like me or even, you know, more average where it's just like, I have no idea what a backyard ultra is. Sure. So we'll, you know, and I'll, I'll talk a little bit about the environment too. So the backyard ultra format is 4.167 miles. OK, it's a loop or an out and back. It could be either way.

And you run it once an hour and you have an hour to complete it. So you, let's say we start the race at 8:00 AM, you have until 9:00 AM to finish that, that loop. It's like a 14 minute and 33 second pace, I think. So if you finish it, then you have the option to get back on the starting line when the next hour hits. If you don't finish it, you're, you're out. So you know, that's and then it's kind of choose your own adventure from there. If you finish 1234, you can go as long as you want. One of the rules we like to put, it's not an actual rule, but one of the things that we like to communicate to the runners is don't quit in the chair.

So if you finish your 4th loop and you're sitting there and you're changing your shoes or socks or eating, at least get up in the chair, get back in the corral. You have to be in the corral when the time hits and cross the start line. And I tell you what, I've seen people get 234 extra laps and by just getting out there, start walking and then they run a little bit because you know, 14 1/2 miles, if you can speed walk, you can walk that pace. So that's the format and it creates a really cool environment similar to like the 8 hour dream, a little different, but you have a little different in a sense that as a runner you're meeting somebody new every lap because you're at a conversational pace.

You know, 15 minutes is a conversational place for basically anybody you. So you're meeting new friends, the crews are getting to meet each other. You can be there for two or three days. You know, camp sites are set up. This year we've introduced something that is only, to my knowledge, done at the World Championships of backyard ultras, which is a team format. So we're gonna have five teams, which is essentially scores cross country style. You have as many as 10 people on a team, but we take the top five and we just add their loops together. So they're still competing individually, but you can contribute.

To a team score. That makes sense, yeah. Because otherwise it'd be a really, really long event if you like it. Kind of like where you're like passing the baton to people, It'd be like. You'd be there for weeks. Yeah, you'd be there a long time. So how long does the event typically last? Because it goes until the last is kind of last man standing style. I I feel like the events have been around for a while, so one of the things we haven't eclipsed yet is 100 miles, which is the 24 hours Cameron won last year. Cameron balls are won last year and I think he ran 88.

I think the more established races, normally that second night is where it gets difficult. So you know, 150 a 160 miles, 180 miles is where it gets difficult. The, the reason for the 4.167 is when you multiply that by 24, you get to 100. So it's 100 miles in 24 hours. You know, the world record is, I think Harvey Lewis did 105 loops. So he was four days. Geez. And you think about it, you can't nap. Even if you hammer a loop it, you're going to get maybe 11:50 minutes if you can fall asleep instantly. Right. Yeah, so. Really. Didn't sleep for four days. Yeah.

Wow. That's the challenge, yeah. OK. All right. So we've covered Michigan, Misha a little bit. I mean, we could talk about that forever. I want to know how the heck you, TJ, ended up in endurance sports and now putting on these incredible endurance events. So you mentioned where you were from in Indiana, but tell people how you ended up doing this. I started running when I was young, so I mentioned Anthony Bruns earlier. His family was really into running and we went to a very small Catholic school. OK, They kind of established the cross country team on their own and we all joined it. So I ran 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th grade.

I ran in 9th grade and that was more of a social thing because all the kids I had known from my small school, they closed the high school for that middle school my 8th grade year. So I had to transition to a public school and I went from having twelve kids in my class to 400. So that was like my social safety blanket was running that freshman year because a lot of those kids were still doing that. And then I left running until 2007. And that was kind of the culmination of a fitness journey. So I got into fitness pretty heavily in in 2003. I've always struggle with weight.

So, you know, as a kid I was running in 9th grade. I was 145 lbs. I'm just about 6 feet tall. By the time I graduated, I was 225. And then I got, I moved out to Seattle for about a dozen years. While I was there, I got into fitness and that got me kind of back into it. And so in 2007, I ran my first marathon, which was kind of a culmination of, OK, I've done the bodybuilding thing. I've done, you know, this type of challenge. I want to do a marathon because that's kind of the natural progression. And then I stopped. I did the one and done like a lot of people do.

I got back up to 250 at that time. TJ that blows my mind. When you said you struggle with weight just then I thought, oh, like trying to keep weight on. Because if people were looking at you right now, you would not. I couldn't envision you at 2:50. It's always been like a roller coaster for me. I struggle with food and so back up to 250. I got a phone call in 2012, May of 2012 for my brother and my youngest brother. He's like, hey, I want to run a marathon. You've done this before. Will you run with me? And at that time I was like, man, you know, I'm running a 12 1/2 minute mile.

I went out and kind of tested myself, but I'm like, all right, let's go. This is a reason to get back in shape over the next couple of months. Last 70 or 80 lbs. And then ran that with him. And then the initially, my reason for running was a lot different than it was in that than it is now. Growing up, I was the oldest of three, my younger, my dad was a Division One athlete. My younger brothers were very good at those sports. So Trent was the soccer player and the basketball player and he got a lot of attention and he was that guy.

And Todd was the golfer and the basketball player. And my dad's an avid golfer. So, you know, there was that dynamic. So I, I and my mom was into fitness. And so I'm like, you know what, this could be my thing here. I yeah, at that time I was, what is it this year? It was 12 years ago, so I was 33. And I'm still like looking for that validation. Yeah, don't mean believe me. Yeah. Right, so ran the marathon with him and I'm like, all right, I'm going to do a 50K. So you know, monumental. It was monumental that year. In 2012 I did the Huff which is just like holidays ish right?

December which is a 50K up north. OK, yeah, I've not heard of that. HUFF, huff. OK. And that's been around for a while. So I did that and then I decided to do 50K in Iowa in February and then a 50K. The, there's a, there's a lot of people have done this. There's I think one in October and one in April up on the waterfront in Chicago. So there's a 50K and A50 Miller they do up there and you just run back and forth. It's brutal wind and. Yeah, that sounds awesome, sort of. But then, yeah, when you say wind, yeah, that's a good. Point, like right off the lake, yeah, yeah, You know, did that in April or in March and then in April did A50 Miller in Missouri and then ended up doing 100 Miller in August.

So like just the next year after you did that? Yeah, August 2013 would have been my first 100. Holy crap. So then from there, I mentioned Caleb Chambers earlier, he moved back from Pittsburgh. He was chasing 3 hours. So I kind of, I kind of took it the ultra route first, like most people. I, I wouldn't say accidentally. I, I as I was preparing for monumental, I read Born to Run, right? So. Yeah, I need to read that again. I read it so long ago. Yeah, I mean, it's been, gosh, 12 years. And so, yeah, it was. It was, I read Born to Run. Let's go, let's go do the ultra thing.

So did that and Caleb's chasing three and we were working together at the time. So then I kind of adopted that. And from from that point forward, it's really been about exploring everything running has to offer. So, you know, not being pigeonholed it. And I respect and and really admire people that can grind in a very specific niche of running for 20 years. Yeah. You know, but for me, it's really been about exploring all of these different communities, the different aspects of them, them, and then pulling from those and trying to curate events. Like if you look at FOMO and you look at Prairie, their entry points, like FOMO is a great first ultra.

We want it to be accessible with Prairie in its format kind of being choose your own adventure. We want it to be accessible and we want to bring some of the elements from road running and some of the elements from some of these other things to ultras. But we don't want it to be. We don't want it to feel too corporatized, right, You know? So always something we're tweaking. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, I want to go back to your first marathon, 2007, he said. And which marathon was that? Seattle. I was living in Seattle all the time. Crap. OK, what is that marathon like? It's pretty chill for the first half and this it's been 15 years or 17 years, whatever.

And chill, you mean like pretty flat ton of elevation? Okay. And I remember there in the middle, there's a couple big climbs, but at the very end you're climbing up through the Arboretum in Seattle. And it was I, I remember walking and be like, man, I, I don't know. And then you at that time you bomb down I5 and then into the Seattle Center area and finish. It was rough. It was I ran a four O 7 for my first marathon and definitely did a little bit of walking. I ran it with my buddy Corey, who I'd met in Seattle and and it's come full circle.

Corey is very involved in MTC. Oh. That's so great. He flies back from Seattle for all of our events. He's one helps curate kind of our coaching approaches and and consulting approaches. So did that, and yeah, that was marathon #1. Wow, Yeah, that would that seems like it would be a tricky one. I think we're lucky here with the marathons that we have that are nice and flat. Having these for the first like, yeah, talk about great, we got great first marathons. We got great first ultra marathons here. I mean, with Monumental, for my money is probably the best in the country. If you want to run something fast because you, you know, Chicago's fast.

But weather. Getting in too. Good luck getting in and good luck with the weather. Like, you know, it could be 80, it could be 30. Yeah, monumentals typically always pretty good weather every now and then. I mean, I, I think I've heard, I think I remember you mentioning it, but like, was it two years ago? Yeah, the first time I ran the full dude. And actually, you know what, all things considered, I was more worried about it than it ended up being that big a deal. I think because I had built it up in my head to be like, so bad that it ended up not being good for you, that bad for me.

But yeah, it was a little brutal. It was bad for me. Yeah, I remember we were in the half that year. I remember turning on. Meridian being like, cool, great, what's this? This is fun, great. I also wanted to talk about your problems with food you mentioned just because like I've dealt with that over the course of my life. And So what do you, when you say problems with food, tell people what you mean by that. You know, I've never been clinically diagnosed, but I eat like an addict. So I'm the guy that and I and, and it's it's actually kind of at times it becomes a focal point with people like I'm the guy that I, if I open the Oreos, they're gone, all three racks on the spot.

And so, you know, it's been a thing where I came from, a place in high school where I didn't know much about. I remember calling my mother when I moved to Seattle. I was 21 or 22 at the time, I think 21 when I moved out to Seattle. And I'm like, what do I do? Because I was 23235. And I'm like, I don't know how to diet. I don't understand calories in and out. I don't understand any of that. But it was always like, you know, in high school, having been thin my whole life until my freshman year, I'd go to Arby's and get the five for five and eat all five roast beef sandwiches back then.

Yeah, good luck getting 5 sandwiches anywhere for five. Dollars, right? We see that as a family because my family of five. So anyway, yeah. No, so like, you know, that's, that's been it. If candies around, it's gone. If, if it's if there's a pizza in front of me, it's gone. And so that's been a consistent struggle. You know, I used to a lot of my running early on, not only motivated by what we talked about was also motivated, but like, I don't want to go back there, right? Right. Because I had been able in the past to acutely focused for a period of time and get my weight back down.

But then over time it would erode and the next thing you know, I'd be up 60 or 70 lbs. So probably for the first six or seven years, part of my running was all right, I have to get out today because if I don't, then I won't be able to eat the amount of calories I want to eat. You know, I want to eat 4000 calories a day because I have this problem. And then intermittent fasting came in a couple of years ago while we were doing the Great American 5000, not intentionally, we can talk about that a little bit. And then I've done that for quite some time and that's kept me where I need to be.

And then just recently I had, I'm 45, so I recently had a full physical again a couple of months ago. And they're like, yo, your A1C is super high. And I'm like, I run 70 miles a week. I'm burning glucose all the time. They're like, you're still eating Because I was going to Dairy Queen three times a week. And I would go to a convenience store three times like a full blown addict and get 2 to 3 candy bars when I, you know, and so I've had to cut that out over the last six to seven weeks. I've cut the sugar way, way, way down the ice cream to maybe once or twice a month.

And I, you know, things are getting better. Yeah. Yeah, I, well, I ask you about that a lot because I think it's really relatable. Like a lot of people struggle with that. I struggle with that. One of the reasons I started running in the first place in college was because I wanted to be able to eat and drink what I wanted in college. And so I would do the same thing, kind of mentally think, OK, well, if I get on the treadmill and I run this far, then I can totally drink as much as I want. You know, it was just such a backwards mindset of like, why to be running.

And you know, I, I still deal with issues. I, my husband will be like, Hey, will you, will you pick up some Oreos at the grocery? And I'm like, the reason I don't want to is because I do not want them in my house, right? Like if they're not there, that's great. But if they're there, it's kind of like, oh, I had a really hard workout today. I'm going to eat like 10 Oreos. Like it's crazy. So do you know Renee Sager? I heard the name. OK, you've got to meet Renee. I'm going to introduce you to her. She was on this podcast earlier on.

She just wrote a book, Eat Drink. Think so She's a recovering addict, both food, booze, and she's just incredible. So anyway, side note, you've got to know Renee. But it's just something that I think a lot of people have struggled with or the opposite of like not eating enough too. So it's like I never quite dealt with that more so than I would just like binge on and off. So it's just in constant battle. And part of what I say sometimes too is like when I I love being able to run because I don't have to harp on it as much. Right. But there, that's a, you know, it's a slippery slope because yeah, I'd be like, oh, I'm marathon training, so I can just eat whatever.

And it's just kind of like, yeah, always a struggle. We're not, you know, I think I mentioned him earlier, we aren't Cameron, right? We're not burning 8 to 10,000 calories a day, so eating whatever we want. But I did hear you. I want to touch this real quick. This isn't my podcast, but you mentioned the treadmill. I think you and I have a similar love for the treadmill. You like the treadmill? I do. I wouldn't have expected that. Well, the crazy thing is we have people in in the club that haven't run on like Caleb has A10 plus year, no treadmill streak. Wow, like anti anti anti treadmill.

I I love it. I don't, I just have like I don't know, I don't know about you, but over the years have developed kind of my perfect environment, yes. And it's just so comforting. I love it. Yeah. I've got, like, my shrine of metals. I've got, you know, my fan and yeah, it just I, I love it. I'll probably run on the treadmill today because it's gonna be 8,000,000° outside. I. Did yesterday. Yeah, I didn't get my run in this morning, so I'm like, well, either I just melt or I go watch some Netflix and run on the treads, which I'll probably in the air conditioning.

Perfect. That's funny. Yeah. What is the furthest you've ever run on a treadmill? 22 in Montreal, Canada Wow Quebec Yeah, staring at a. Park were you were you just like work trip? Got to run. Got to get my run in. 22 and doing the conversion in my head in kilometers. Oh no, yeah, I when I've I've travelled and had yeah, kilometer tried and I'm just like, OK, I guess I'll just try to run multiples of a 5K so I know what the heck's going on, but that can be even. I can't remember. I can't remember one. Is it, is it Toronto? One of the airports in Canada.

The there's a hotel with treadmills that overlook the concourse and I've done some long ones there just staring, watching people walk in and out. Into their Yeah, that would be fascinating. I've for a long time and I don't know if this exists now, but thought that there should be like gyms and airports. It stemmed from an idea where I was at. AI stayed at a Weston once and they in their hotel place, they had shoes, workout clothes, like you could borrow everything and then just leave it and they would walk, you know, they just wash everything. I'm like, you could easily do that in airport.

People get stuck, go get your long run in. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. Well, I'm thinking about that actually in real time because I don't want to take running clothes on my trip that I'm taking later this afternoon and tomorrow. I have like a four hour layover in Atlanta. See, but we've actually done that before. So it was a couple of years ago when Caleb and I were still working together. We had a trip and we had a layover on the way back in Minnesota. We landed as we were, we wanted to get a run in. So as we were flying into Minnesota, I'm like looking, you know, on Wi-Fi in the plane trying to find a trail.

We land in Minnesota, we throw our carry ONS and they have some of those pay lockers. You know, we threw carry ONS and pay lockers. There's a back entrance out of the airport where you can catch the train, the train to the city, you get off the first stop. We ran 8 miles in a park in Minnesota, Jump back on the train back to the airport, changed eight, got on the plane. Yeah, would be way more convenient if they had gyms in. The airport, well, I'm thinking like Peloton just shut down like a lot of their showrooms. I'm like, why aren't there in every airport?

There should be a Peloton place where, but you could go reserve, you know, during your labor, you could reserve a bike, reserve a Tread. They have all the clothes. Like it could be their apparel. It's like, come on, people. That'd be so. Dope. Yeah. Be really nice anyway, so wow, 22 miles on a tread. I don't know the furthest I've run on a treadmill, but it's, I think it's more than 1/2 marathon or it's probably right around there. When I studied abroad, I this is when I still had some of an unhealthy relationship with food and stuff and especially being in Europe, like wanting to eat everything insight.

But I used to. There's this little tiny gym next to like where I went to school and I would run like 10 miles on the treadmill all the time. But that's, I mean, you know, most people I see their uploaded runs of Strava and there's always some negativity of so associated with when they had to run on the treadmill. So yeah, knocking Tin out is right, yeah. It's like, and if anything I argue too, that it's like a lot more mentally challenging to be on a treadmill. Paces feel different. They feel more difficult, I think, on a treadmill than they do outside. That's what I tell myself when I feel guilty, which I shouldn't feel guilty about running on the.

Treadmill. You shouldn't feel guilty. I love it. Yeah, anyway, OK, so you run with your brother. Does he still? He still runs. Yeah, brothers. Both of them. My first one, I ran the Monumental in 2012. Then the middle brother Trent was like, oh, I want to get into this. And so in 2013 he started running and we did the Monumental together in 2013 and then we all three ran Boston together in in 18 the year with the weather 1818 yeah. So we did that together. So they all still run. The youngest one is the athlete. He's like the freak endurance athlete. He Speaking of Orangetheory back in the day, he has the second fastest dry try time in the nation and he's one that Orangetheory like regionals a couple times.

And then Trent is more like Trent's recently found that like doing a running streak really benefits him. So he's kind of in on the streak side of things right now and and is exploring that. But yeah, they both still run. They are both doing a running streak this year because it's a leap year. So yeah, we're still, we're still getting after it, OK. And are they both here in Indy? One is, one is up in Marion. OK, one is up in Marion. Gotcha. OK, So I'm just trying to think of where to even start with all of the stuff that you've done, like since you did that marathon again with your brother and kind of you kind of breeze through like, OK, and then I did like 250 KS and I did my 50 Miller and then I trained for my first 100 Miller.

It's like, how do you describe that journey? What are some of the things that you found that helped you continue to increase in mileage? I just think of coaching nutrition like all the things. Sure. When I started the ultra journey I was working with Carl Meltzer. So he's the winningest 100 Miller 100 mile runner of all time. He has a 20 year streak of winning at least 100. And so I started working with him and he imparted some knowledge early on that was really helpful. So he's like, you know, you don't need to go run 70, eighty 9000 mile weeks to do 100 mile alters.

You can survive on 40 or 50. So I think from the get go, I've kind of had this thirst to understand where the balance lies, how much and and that is manifested itself on the speed side of things too. You know, I think it was I sent my marathon PR in January of 23. I'm in 248 in Arizona. And but I did it kind of my way and and you know, I've looked for where that balance is from a training perspective. One of the things that we've we've kind of tried to I mentioned Corey earlier, he's extremely into the double threshold thing that that the Yakabinga Britain is racing the 1500 tonight.

You know, he's the favorite him and Josh Kerr and this is their approach to training. So Corey has is delved as deep as you can, as it were come as it comes to lactate threshold training. And so how do you take that and what the Olympic athlete is doing and then pare it down for a 45 year old man like myself or anybody for that matter? And so, you know, one of the unique things they do is they measure blood lactate when they do their workouts. And what that does is it allows them to find the exact point they need to get to to ensure they can get the maximum amount of adaptation from that workout and be recovered enough to do the next.

As you know, like a lot of times, let's say you had a workout and you were going to do it outside today and it was 4 by a mile at 8 minute pace. It's 95 out today. You'd probably go out and try to run 4 by a mile at 8 minute pace and it might even be 750 because that's what your brains like. I got to go do it. And you're way over your skis doing something like that. And then you can't recover for the next. And you know, it's different when you're younger. You can layer a lot of mileage and you can layer a lot of workouts, but you run the risk of injury or you run the risk of overtraining a little bit.

So I love being able to find that number and say, OK, like, look, I can get the, the, the law of diminishing returns for me is like, if I get over 70 miles, things aren't going to work. And if I run these workouts too hard, things aren't going to work. So really the journey has been exploring those elements as it relates to ultras. How much mileage do I have to run? How much do I have to run fast? And then the same thing when it comes to Rd. racing, the same thing when it comes to track and then even multi day events. Wow. Yeah. So you so you work with Carl still like as a coach?

I did, I haven't worked with Carl. I ran that, that Vol State 300 Miller in 2015, 2015. That was kind of the last that we worked together. But I've I've taken a lot of his wisdom and utilized that when consulting with other people. When Cameron came on in 2017 or 18 we used some of those tactics when he started racing his his first couple of ultras. Gotcha, are you self coach now? You know, Corey and I, Corey consults. So we, we, we will do things together. He will give me some ideas. I continue to read a lot of books. I'm into Steve Magnus and Jonathan Marcus.

They have a podcast called on coaching and they really, they also have something called the scholarship program, which is pretty affordable. It's like $15.00 a month. But what they do is they deep dive into Iglo and Canova and Bowerman and all of the big coaches throughout history and look at the things that they got right and maybe they got wrong and provide as much details as they can as it relates to the training programs that were relevant to those athletes that they coached at that time and what to take. So I do a lot of that still. OK. Yeah, yeah. Now you've talked about Cameron a few times, Yeah.

And also now you have a lot of you have brothers, you guys all have T names, Todd, Trent, TJ And then we've got you've mentioned a Corey, a Caleb, a Cameron. So I'm trying to like remember, OK, who's who, but I certainly know who Cameron is because he just got home from running the perimeter of the United States. Like even saying that out loud. Are you just Can you believe that that's done that he he started in what October of last year, October 9th. How did this and I I can't wait to meet him. I've never met Cameron, but I can't wait to learn more.

But from your perspective, like how did this all come together? What part did you play in this? I just want to know such Cameron is. Probably one of the two or three most unique people I've ever met. I met him in 2017. We had a mutual friend who was one of the Scott Reader, who was one of the founding members of MTC, call me up. And he was like, hey, there's this guy up here in Grant County, went to Oak Hill High School and he's interested in getting into ultras. And so he's like, would you talk to him? Would you help him? Sure. So I get on the phone with Cameron and Cameron, I'm like, I'm asking him, you know, what's your point of reference?

What, what's the farthest distance you've run? And he's like, I've run 26 miles. I've done a marathon. I'm like, OK, cool. I'm like, what? What's your goal? What do you want to do? And he said, well, there's this race up in Illinois called Potawatomi, and it's a 200 mile race with 20,000 feet of gain. He didn't tell me that off the jump. He just said it. He said it was 200 miles. I went and looked and found the 20,000. Oh my God. And I'm like, man, having experienced a lot of it myself up until that point, because I've done the big race in Tennessee, I've done the 100.

I'm like, man, that's pretty ridiculous. But I did know that he was a really talented high school runner. Unfortunately for him, fortunately or unfortunately, I guess there's good and bad in both. Going to a small high school, he was one of those kids and track that ran like 5 events because he was so good. Yeah, you know, relative to whatever. And so we started training together. He had done a couple ultras, but he, he'd started talking about this running across the country pretty early on. Within a year of us working together, he'd won out. He'd he'd gone out and run Old Dominion, which is one of the oldest hundreds in the United States and a pretty prestigious one.

He'd finished third with like a five mile off off course where he went the wrong way. Jeez, and we were seeing like these really good performances from him and but he was always talking about this and he's such a Cameron believes unequivocally that everything happens for a reason, that the universe is not necessarily predetermined, but that if you follow your dreams, it just will all kind of come together. And so I think people, especially early on in his journey have a really hard time like attaching and aligning with that because most people if they were going to take run around the country, they planned for like 18 months, right?

They would meticulously because he unsupported, right? So they would meticulously plan, here's where I'm going to sleep. Here's where I'm going to get food. Here's where I'm going to do this. I remember before he left, I was having a conversation with somebody and they're like, does Cam know that he needs like extra sets of tires for his kid runner, which is the cart that he pulls behind him? Like, like that's not going to last for, you know. For but everybody's you know. Engagement with Cam, like that's what you think about. Like is he so free spirit? It's like, is he even thinking about this kind of thing?

And he luckily has a counterpart, Dylan Stafford, who is another part of the team, who is the most analytical person I've ever met. And so Dylan is Cam crew chief. OK, good. And so he balances. Him out a little bit, but. Kim, you know, he basically flew by the seat of his pants for the whole nine months. He never knew where he was going more than a day or two out. You know, he got really good at recognizing when there were going to be areas that were tough. There was somewhere down in West TX where it was like 140 miles without food or water. So he had he had luckily, and again, this is, you know, he'll tell you the universe kind of coming together.

He luckily had met somebody in Austin that was able to coordinate with some of her friends and get him supplies during that 140 mile strategy. That's so cool. So. It's been. Wild to watch. It's still really hard. You know, it's I still have conversations on a daily basis with people that are just like, do people understand how ridiculous? Like, it's 40 miles a day, every day. Having to worry about setting up camp, having to worry about breaking down camp, having to worry about wild animals, having to worry about weather, where you're going to get food, where you're going to get water. Like it's, it's really unfathomable.

And it takes a really special person. Yeah. I mean, I just think about how much anxiety I get about. Running a marathon like, oh, do I have all my, you know, yeah. It's just I don't think I could ever. I mean, I don't know that I'll ever truly understand that, certainly, but it's just so insane, incredible. And how like the 200 Miller, like even just saying, hey, I've run a marathon. I want to run 200 miles. Talking about the speed project or no? Well, no, not even that. Just going back to him to the first time you met. And him being like. Yeah, this is what I want to do.

And you're like, OK, just going to skip the 50K. Yeah, we're just. Going to go right there. And oh, man, it's just, it's just so, yeah, just blows my mind. Did you run that with him? Did you end up doing that 200 Miller? I paced him a little bit, paced him a little bit. I spent, you know, and I, I did about 120 of the of the 11,000 of gosh, yeah, maybe. Maybe I. Guess if you include the speed project, which I won't gloss over that that was a race he did in the middle of. And we've got a documentary that we just premiered a couple of days ago, which we're going to be premiering again here in Indy, A good friend of and you made, you know, John, John I we are only Instagram.

Friends. I've never met John, I don't think. Brilliant, Creative. Created a masterpiece with this film on the Speed project. So that was a race that Cam did in the middle of his journey around the country. Essentially it's a, it started as a relay from Santa Monica Pier to the Las Vegas sign in Vegas. It's really cool. It kind of has a little bit of the Berkeley feel, not from a difficulty perspective, but you can't just apply. You can't just get in. You have to apply, you have to be approved. It's it's kind of an invite only kind of thing. Cam got in in the solo mission, but he essentially ran 6200 miles to the start line, ran a 300 mile solo race and then flew back to LA and continued the route.

So John made a film about that, which we're going to be showing in Lawrence on the 23rd, 23rd of August. Yeah, Yeah, I saw the trailer for it. Yeah. It's it. Well, all of a sudden I'm like, I forget where I saw. I didn't know he's going to just do the speed project in the middle of this endeavor. And all of a sudden I'm like, wait a minute. That's obviously not around the perimeter of the United States going into Vegas. Yeah. And that I mean. That's a whole. Thing in and of itself when you see the documentary. It was bananas. I mean, he didn't paper.

He showed up, we picked him up on Saturday. The race started at 4:00 AM Monday morning and 280 miles through Death Valley on and some of the roads out there are just brutal. You know, there's because the cool thing about the speed project are there, there's no rules. So you just have to get to Vegas as fast as you can, whatever route you choose outside of running on the Interstate. So the traditional route was 340 miles all on roads. But over the years, Lucy Schultz, she held the fastest known time. She said it a couple years ago. It's since been broken, but it was 85 hours.

And she had found this route through all of these service power line roads. So when you see some of the drone shots in the film, it's just it's jaw-dropping. But it's extraordinarily difficult. And to have him do that, you know, averaging, he ran I think 92 miles the first day from another 80 some the second day and then 116 on the third day. Yeah. It's really crazy to to digest. Well, it's just it's crazy to digest. It's crazy. That he's not like, he comes home and he's like still on two feet. Well, now he's going for the world record, right? And. And now he's going for the world.

Record which is what, 11? How many? 1000 miles 14. In a year. I don't I. Haven't run that far in my life, I mean. Certainly not in my whole lifetime. 14 Yeah, I probably, I won't. It's it's. Wild 'cause I mean for. For a, I think for a serious runner, 1000's a Goodyear, you know, yeah, I actually never calculated. My total annual mileage, I mean Strava has I guess, so I should look at it, but I'm sure but like you know, 1000. 'S a Goodyear 2000. When you get into 3000 now you're at like elite level, you're running 60 plus miles a week and he's quadrupling that essentially yeah.

And then some yeah. But yeah, we're he's home. He's hopefully he'll get out today and knockout 42 because he needs to average that for the for the until October 8th. OK, wow. Yeah, I. Just there's. Just no. Like my brain cannot compute any of it. It's hard. It's it's very. Difficult to, I think. How many pairs of shoes did he go through? 27 OK, there you go, 2727 pairs of shoes burn 2 million. Calories 11,130 miles, about 400,000 feet in elevation gain. Yeah. Cameron, you're just just a beast all around. Like absolutely wild. I'm curious about your personal life alongside your running journey just because as a as a mom of two young children, you're a father of three.

How does that dynamic work like and and at what point did in your running journey did you become a dad? So my oldest. Is 10, so I was 35 S pretty early on because I really, I really got serious at 33. I think some yeah, really got serious at 33. So pretty early on in the journey, you know, for me, luckily, I mean, you know how it is. You just, you figure out how to fit it in. You know, I was traveling a ton when they were young. I don't do that as much anymore, but it was probably 200 days a year back then. Now it's probably somewhere between 75 and 100.

But you just figured out like I figure out the treadmills, you know, I'm constantly on all trails looking for trails that I can run in different cities, which is really cool doing that and exploring there. You know, like this week I know I'm going to be gone for a couple of days. So I front loaded it a little bit where did a workout on Monday, which I normally wouldn't do when a little longer this morning. So I think that's, that's really how it works. My family's pretty understanding and my job is fairly flexible. So for me, you know, I'm a lunch runner, which this time of year is awful, but I'll knock it out, you know, between 11:30 and, and one or, or whatever.

Most days, every now and then, I'll get convinced like I did last week, to do what those crazy people do and run at 5:00 AM Yeah, yeah, I'm in a seasonal life. Where that, that's not when I can do it because I'm, you know, I have flexibility to do kind of lunch, run, afternoon. I can run really whenever. Yeah. Except. Yeah. So I don't have to do it in the morning. How old are you? 2? I have a 7. Year old and a. 3 year old girls, both girls. So it's just still where they're not quite like the sleep at night is still not, you know, regular.

And so that just kind of makes things trickier. My husband goes to the gym in the mornings. And so for me to like, get up, get my run in, it would have to be like super duper early. So, yeah, this time of year, that's hard because now that I'm technically marathon training, I, you know, I'm going to start to be out there in the in the heat. Hopefully it won't be as bad as it's been. But I mean, you know, I don't the the crazy. Early stuff. I get up in the morning and I'll look at Strava and it's like people are finished. They started at 4, three, they started at five.

Yeah, it's yeah, yeah, I've done. I've been in seasons. Where I've done that, like the women I'd be training with had to get be in an office, like at a desk at 8:00 AM. And so we would meet up at 4:30 in the morning to get our miles in. And that was before I had kids. I was like, what was I thinking? I can't. I can't do. That why? Yeah. To people who do that. Props to like. For. Sure. This is a good opportunity, too, to talk more about Kaylin, your daughter who's 10. Because I saw on Instagram that she had a running streak. Does she still have a running streak?

She does. It is. Close to 750 days. Get out of here. Yeah, it's. Been. It's been. Unique because when you have a kid start a running streak at 8, you know, you can't help but think of. I mean, I don't pay attention to the the noise, but you you think are people judging the fact that my like, do they think I'm not here? You know, you have those thoughts. You have that somebody's like, OK, Caitlin, you got to. Get up and run your mile. The way it came about was I was watching the World Championships a couple of years ago and during the World Championships, track and field World Championships, there was a commercial, I think it was for the Boys and Girls Club at the YMCA.

And, and the premise of the commercial was these kids, they were outside playing. I run my daily mile. I run my daily mile. And I started thinking to myself, it's like it's for a kid maybe 15 minutes a day. That's not going to hurt anybody. You know, you're not going to destroy your kids future in athletics by running 15 minutes a day. And so I it's OK, I said let's go run, let's go run a mile a day. And that first week was awful. She ran. 50. Meters the first time, then got to a tree and started walking and then she, you know, I, I think I had at one point maybe planted a seed and said something to her like, you know, I think you could have some natural talent here.

And she ran that first 50 meters and like, hey, let's keep going, dad, I'm going to let my natural talent take me. But as that week progressed, she would make it her own. So she would go run around the park by the pool in the neighborhood or she would, you know, run loops. And it started to become part of her identity and she started to make it fun. She'd find a friend to run with a with her for 1/2 mile or her sister would run with her for a little bit. And then after about a week or 10 days, it was her thing. And it became this.

I've got to do it, I've got to do it. The crazy thing is, you see like ourselves in the in microcosms of what running is. You know, we had an issue a couple of weeks ago. She loves the treadmill too, because it's just convenient and easy. And she is now in the season of a ton of sports. Oh yeah, you. Know she's. Soccer 6 hours a week plus cross country starts at the end of the month and then that overlays. So she comes home from a two hour soccer practice last night and she's like, dad, I still have to run and I'm like, I wouldn't have done that.

I I don't know if I could do that now, right? But it's also like during. Your soccer practice, you probably ran like 6 miles 100%, you know? Wow, so she does it outside of? That there have been. A couple times where like this past winter when she was training, they she was doing it wasn't actually, so it was like conditioning. So she would wear her watch and actually track it. Like track it. Yeah, yeah, a couple of weeks. Ago. She, I taught her how to upload manually to Strava because it's, it's kind of a pain for her to start a swift on the TV and sometimes it doesn't connect to the treadmill.

So she just runs, takes a picture, uploads it manually. Well, I noticed that I walk in the house and I'm like, oh, you run today? And she's like, yeah, I just finished, sweetheart. I've been running way too long. I know what you look like when you just finished. And I'm like, well, oh, that's what shoes did you wear? I wore my Nikes. I'm like really? And I noticed that the picture she uploaded was the exact same as one from like two weeks earlier. And I'm like, hey, did you run? And she freaked out. I'm so sorry. I swear to gosh. This is the only time I've she was so distraught and she's like, all right, I just the temptation.

I just run it outside every time from here on out. So. And she, you know, and I told her, I said, look, it's not about me, do not do this for me. This is about this is you. And you know, when you tell somebody, if you make it to 1000 days, you want to feel good inside yourself that you really did that. So. And she's like, yeah, it's just been really tough these last couple of of days. And and so it all, it all came to bear. It's fine, you know, But yeah, she's about 750 days and she faces the struggles everybody else does, right?

Yeah, of trying to. Fit it in, in the midst of being 10, Did she? When did she get a watch that we mentioned earlier? Like right when after she started and kind of was into it. So we had the 50. Five, the square 10. OK, of course you would. Yeah, you had. My wife had run 1/2. Marathon many moons ago. OK, Tara, who is, as I'm sure your husband is, very tolerant of the running stuff. Yeah, as tolerant as she can be. Sorry. Yeah. So she's amazing, she. Had a watch we gave to Kay. When Kay hit her year, I bought her another watch used.

I wouldn't buy her a brand new Phoenix, right? Yeah, but I found, you know. The the. Phoenix success, which is the little very it's more feminine than like giant yeah, it's the. Gold, rose gold and white. So that's what she runs. With that's fun, She's. Done cross country now for a couple seasons with body and training and track for a couple seasons with them and has done really well. But most importantly, it's stayed fun. And that's right, you know that is. You know, as a parent who I, I want my kids to love running too. And it's like, OK, you know, how do I make sure that I am introducing them to the sport in a way that, you know, that stays fun?

I, I just don't want them to ever feel like, oh, I, you know, but then there's this whole balance of teaching them how not to quit something too, when it gets hard. So I'm sure you've gone through that with Caitlyn over the last couple of years because that's really tough to be like, listen, it's going to be hard some days and you're not going to want to do it some days. But that's a whole lesson in and of itself to like persevere and get through that. And yeah, then you layer on Hamilton County sports. Youth sports. I've talked about that on this podcast. It's just like, Oh my gosh, a whole nother ball game.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I I've really. Tried my best not to have our kids in activities, much like Sydney has played soccer, she's done like piano, she's done gymnastics. But that, I mean, that's it. Yeah. And. And then Sloan's in gymnastics just because her sister's in and I had, there was a class at the same time for her age. So I'm like, well, I'm going to put her in that so I can just sit here. Not because I want her to be an Olympic gymnast. But yeah, it's hard. And it's hard to like right now watching the Olympics as well and being like, how fun would it be to have your kid, you know, get to that level?

It'd be so cool. But yeah, it makes you think. And that's a. Very consistent topic of conversation for the people I run with. And I'm sure you know, I think that's when you start to understand not only does it take this unbelievable athletic gift, but navigating it like getting there. Like, how do you as a parent, like you said, keep it fun, but not relax to the point that, you know, so it's you got to kind of let it unfold. And and that's when you start to understand, wow, it's really the 1% of the 1% because essentially you have to have a kid who's extremely athletically gifted, who absolutely has love and passion for it by the time they're five.

Yeah. I feel like you just you would have to. Just know, almost like like you'll get the kids that are forced. To do the sport that end up loving it like a Tiger Woods 1 in hundreds and hundreds of millions of people like highly. Unlikely you know or. Somebody who has so athletically gifted that they could start the sport in 8th grade and, you know, dominate, but it's pretty rare. Yeah, absolutely. So has Caitlyn. Done races at all? Sure. Well, I guess with cross country, she's. Races but. Like any any sort of distance, she did the Prairie. She did 16 miles at Prairie last year.

She did 16 miles. Yeah, she. Ran with a friend Hazel that ran just a little farther. Kay didn't make the entire last lap. She got walked back in. So the way the Prairie course is there's a little loop up top that adds like, I don't know, a little less than a mile. So she didn't do that. She got 16 miles in. We we go to the pre classic every year. She got to go out this year and they had something for the first time ever where on Friday night you could run on the track. And so she got out there with a bunch of grown women and in her heat finished second.

So ran a 649, which is cool and but she got be up on the big screen, in a word, and it was really cool. That's so cool. That is so cool. So that has been fun. Yeah, to. Have somebody that enjoys it right do you? Well, you brought up pre. And now you're wearing, you're wearing your Cole Hawker shirt. So I thought you sent a picture of you and Cole together. Cole is from the Indy area. Where did he went to Cathedral. He went to Cathedral, graduated in 19. Yeah. Yeah. So as we record this podcast. His his race is today this afternoon. And so how did you you meet him just out at pre or have you do you known him?

So I've name. Dropped just about every MTC person but we have been lucky. So one of the guys that Caleb met via running around, this guy by the name of Jacob Rich and Jacob's part of the crew. We've done some relays together. He coached it for Buff for about a decade and ran. He was Carmel's number one. He's I think he's just turned 35 to 36. So he was Carmel's number one, you know, in the early 2000s. And so he has plugged in, he's super plugged into the younger running community. And so there have been degrees of separation, you know, through J Rs connections and then have seen Cole twice at pre we've run into each other and then one other time, I can't remember where.

And then a friend of my brother's helps him does his investments. So like there's a couple different, I just found that out like a few days ago. There's a couple different pathways there, but yeah, we've had a couple good conversations, so it's very cool. Acquaintance is at best probably. Yeah, yeah, which is still. Like so freaking cool. It's going to be crazy. I mean, this is the race. This is the 1500 of the century tonight, for sure. I'm excited. I'm excited to. To watch my friend Cindy Smith, who was on this podcast a while ago, she, she has a business kind of similar to mine and she's out in Paris.

And she didn't even tell me all of a sudden on Instagram I'm like, you're in Paris. And she's like, well, I wasn't sure it was going to happen. She messages me this weekend and it's like, hey, this is going to be crazy. But like, if you can get to Paris by Saturday, I have an extra ticket. I was like, I can't because I have all this mom shit this weekend. But I was like, I was, I started looking at flights and I was like, OK, that would have been so. Lying. So I just. Well. You know, life, it's hard. It's hard in those opportunities especially.

I know I'll be kicking myself, but well, I'll tell you what. Instead you just come out to. Prairie on the 7th. We're going to have great food out there. We got one of the original founding members of MTC, John Phallus. He smokes pork every year. He's the one at the So I don't know if you knew, but at the full MO finish line every year, we don't just do like bananas and apples and energy bars, We do Ruth, Ruth's Chris Sliders. No, I didn't know. That's our finish line food. So he's been. Responsible for that. Like, it's pretty wild. So yeah, yeah, I keep telling Monumental.

I'm like. There's some other like let's do some cool stuff. How long have you been on that board? This is my third. Year. Awesome. Yeah. And so I always just think, gosh, what if we could do like, I don't know, I would love to see like hot chocolate or I mean, just all kinds of random stuff. I'm like, we have like the typical stuff, but like there's just all this opportunity to like be better plugged in to local stuff like that example. I can imagine what you guys like the. Planning and everything I can imagine. Yeah. Of a race that that yeah, I'm still I mean, I'm.

Still learning so much. Really. Yeah, It's crazy. Wow. I mean, it's just. I mean, that's, you know, like I said earlier, for my money, the fastest race in the country. And then I mean, it's scale. It's not small. No, Yeah. Better and better. So I want to talk more about relays. I told you this earlier, selfishly, I am doing my first Ragnar next month in Michigan, goes from Traverse City to Muskegon. And you've done it before. I have which is amazing. So. I mean, I've. Read a few blog. Posts about what the heck to pack. I'm not in like super preparation mode. We haven't had our legs assigned yet, but so what's the goal?

Are you are you going up with? Other women and and, and you want to win your division or you just want to go have fun? No, we're having, we're having fun. So I mean, I say that, but I'm so competitive that I will certainly race myself in my legs. But, and we've got a few other women I know. Oh shoot, I'm going to forget Ashley's last name. She did the FOMO Olga. She is training for Chicago. She's I mean, she every time I she's always doing races. So we definitely have some women on the team who run a lot and who are talented. And then there's also like just it's just a hodgepodge of our our team name is, oh, gosh, 12 random running Hoosiers.

Like we're just like, it's kind of a mixture of people. So we're, yeah. Bottom line, we're going mostly to have fun. But that's not to say we're not going to, like, try. Sure. Yeah. Ragnar Michigan was an experience. For us, and I do not want to disparage that production at all and and I wanted to say this in a way that's humble, which is going to be difficult. So let's talk about you first and your approach. I mean, I think a couple things that you know, people overlook is, you know, really getting together, getting a grocery list, excuse me, getting a grocery list together, making sure you guys have food that agrees with everybody's stomach and having that in the vans is very important.

A lot of a lot of other women that have raised with us not on the same team, but alongside us, you know, they put forth suggestions that we don't think about like a bring those larger Ziploc bags for dirty clothes. The guys don't do that. It's just you know, you're in the same clothes for the most part. Those are big things is always making sure the food, making sure that you really have your driving, they'll give you driving directions, but really making sure you're dialed in and understanding, asking ahead of time if there are any pinch points. And we've done HUD to coast twice and there's a particular set of legs on Hood to coast in our pinch points.

So like last year, I think there's 1000 teams that do head to coast. We finished 8th, but we lost 15 minutes to traffic. So you can imagine, and, and I know based on what I like, I've listened to this podcast quite a bit and what I've seen from you on social media, I can imagine that if you were standing waiting for a, if you had finished a leg and you had the baton, well, in Ragnar, it's a slap bracelet and you were standing there and your person wasn't there, you'd probably lose it after a couple minutes. Like where are you? And you'll see that you'll get up there and you'll see somebody finish and their person will be at the finish and they're just playing, having fun.

And it's like, come on. So pinch points is an important thing. The right food is an important thing. Making sure you have all of that dialed in and then deciding on your strategy for sleep. Those are those are three really big things. Michigan is interesting. We went up there with the gold break in the course record and it got a little sketchy at one point we were told to run in circles. And so the way Ragnar works is if they want to minimize the amount of time that they're closing roads, right? So the the slower team start early, the faster team start late. So we started in last group and if you get to, so there's three major exchanges, I can't remember 3 or 6, whatever.

There's the major exchanges where you're switching vans and if you get to a major exchange before a particular time. So basically they're saying is if you're sandbagging and you're like, oh, we're really, really slow and they start you early, but you're actually really fast, they want to prevent you running out in front of what they already have set up. That makes sense. Yeah, they want to minimize like look. Let's try to only instead of closing the roads for 60 hours, let's try to close them for 30. And we'll, we'll stagger these starts. Yeah, well, we started as late as you could. And we're, we have some very analytical people on the team.

My youngest brothers want another guy from Boston, another MTC out of state or Eric Lucerarian. They're very analytical. So we have spreadsheeted out. Oh yeah, you know, and not. Only spreadsheeted. Out, but Eric goes as far as to look at the course elevation profile and adjust times based on elevation grade. So he'll be like incredible. It's nuts. So we were within, it's a 200 mile race. We were within 12 minutes of our actual finish time in terms of what we put forth because you're going to, you know, you have to put forth your 10K times or whatever and. Wow. We got to the second major exchange and we had caught up and with the front of the race, the one in the middle of the night and they were like the guys that said they said look, if you go into this early, you're going to get penalized for two.

Hours so. Why don't you guys run in circles until they open the exchange? Luckily, you know, we had gotten that information prior to our guy getting there. It was actually Eric, I think was doing that exchange. He got there like a minute after it opened. So we were good. The race director, though, with all the people that were there, she was like, OK, guys, so you guys are doing really well. You're running really fast. But just take it easy, you know, back it off a little bit. We, you know, we're right here to have fun. And she's talking to like 200 people. Well, Caleb can have a temper.

And he looks at her in the middle of her speech and he's like, are you kidding me? And I mean, the language was colorful. It was more like, are you fucking out of your mind? And she goes, excuse me? He's like, we left our fucking families to come up here and race and you're telling me to slow down? Telling me to. Run in circles and. Slow down and and so finally we pull him back. We wait till she finishes speaking. We have the conversation and we're trying to come up with a solution. We're like, hey, can you anything? You know, we'll, we'll stop, let us stop, but we'll stop for a couple hours.

But we need you to subtract that from our finish time, right? And so we talked through it and at the next major change, they let us stop for three hours. So we stopped for three hours, which made sleeping interesting because it was kind of this rolling thing where we weren't sure if they were going to let us stop and how long. So you're like, should I get some sleep? Then yeah, so. We stopped for three hours and Long story short, we still finished before they had the finish line set up. And again, that's not like us. It's just they, that year in particular, I think maybe because it was a year, maybe after COVID or whatever, they weren't dialed.

So I don't think it was because we're like super ultrafast because we're not. I mean, as you know, the deeper you get into running, the greater your context is. And it's like, oh, I, you know, oh, I'm a 248 marathoner. We had Mark Guyer on who's like a 229 guy, 220, whatever. And then Anthony Brunsgai referenced earlier, he ran 223 in Boston and finished second Masters a couple of years ago. So like, it's a completely different thing. So we're fast, but we're not crazy, crazy fast. But yeah, beautiful course. Weather was pretty good, relatively speaking. And you know, you guys will have a lot of fun on that course and I don't hopefully won't run into some of those similar issues.

So yeah, well, we certainly won't be at the. Before they set it up, I can tell you that, but I'm, I mean, I was up there, I was in South Haven for a week with my family and, and running and there were like a couple of these like little little hills because I mean there's like not, it's not big stuff, but I was thinking to myself, like as I'm running up this little hill, like get ready. This is like, this is what it's going to be like for the race because I don't do a ton of elevation training. Hey, you been the flotilla, though There's no.

Elevation there is a little bit age group winter. Yeah, nobody. That does. It's such a small race, but. It's fine. We had three MTC people run this this. Year you know what I actually did see somebody in a jersey so my. Brother and a guy by the name of Tim Morehead they. Ran and then our one of our guys Josh Urban won the 8 Miller overall OK and him and his girlfriend then yes, Christina oh. I didn't know he was an MTCR then, yeah. We ran with. Josh So we did last year's hood to. Coast so Jacob went to IU Jacob Rich and he rode little 5 for the black key bulls down there.

And so we did Hood to Coast last year, half MTC, half Black key bulls and Urban was on that team. So like you have like me and Anthony and Caleb, who are all in our like mid to late 40s and then Josh is like 25 and he's like an absolute monster. And you know. Another kid named Christian Stevens, Some of these guys that they're like Christian just graduated and ran D1 at Cincinnati and Josh ran at Marquette, you know, Yeah. So it was fun to get out there with those guys. And again, context. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Get your doors blown off. But it was fun.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's. That's really cool. Well, I'm, I'm excited. For my first kind of relay, and actually I say first, but I did like a marathon relay a long time ago. Marathon Relay or downtown OK And it was for a nonprofit. I should know. That but I. Don't. It was a really long time ago. That's the only other relay type thing I've done. But it was like just downtown. It wasn't like a overnight like production kind of a thing. And I think the more I talk to people just in general and like running community type stuff, the more I don't know the the Ragnar name is more to your point when you mentioned like corporate stuff earlier, I think that that's my perception of what rag like Ragnar kind of is like they're a corporate entity with all these different races around the country, but they're very it's just different and probably a different vibe than some of the other.

Probably feels more like, you know, it's like it's. Kind of like what's happened to Rock'n'roll. Yeah, like Rock'n'roll was like it. 15 years ago it. Was the coolest thing. Now the the marathon I ran in Arizona in in 23 that you know, my my PR marathon was a rock'n'roll and it was so underwhelming, just the production. It's like, how can we? Make as much money with putting as little back into it as possible. And you know, it's, it's good to see that some of the races aren't doing that. You know, Monumental is not doing that. The Mini doesn't seem to be doing that. We try not to do that with our races, you know, because it can be such a, an impactful thing for somebody.

But but yeah, I, I feel like Ragnar, you're exactly right, has become somewhat corporatized. And it's like, OK, let's do as little as we can. But I've just tell yourself too, it's going to be fun to remember, you know, and it's going to be fun to think about approaching. I've never run a relay. It's not just pure misery. Yeah, that's what you said. You're like, yeah, all I think about is pain, not. So much the fun. Well, the misery part for me is the sleeping stuff. Like, you know, I mentioned earlier, my young kids aren't perfect sleepers and so I don't get great sleep all the time, but I at least sort of get in sleep in my bed.

Today I literally was, I ended up at the like curled up at the foot of my like on my king bed, but like at the bottom because my kids and my husband, we're all four in this bed. It was just horrible anyway, so I'm like, well, you know, if I can do that, I can surely sleep in a van or on a cot in a gym somewhere. But that'll be the hardest part for me. Good luck. We we get hotels every now and then, like we planned that out. You did OK 'cause we did a hotel at the start in the Airbnb. At the end, but nothing else in between.

We got one room in the middle. That we both utilized, both teams utilized for a little bit like strategically placed, we might have even gotten 2. We've done I think 3 Ragnars and 200 coasts. And so we typically will get something in the middle that we can swap back and forth on if at all possible. So you might want to look into that because that makes a huge difference. Do people like? Set up. Tents like are there opportunities? To do that so at the main, the major middle. Intersection, I think it, I don't know if this is Minnesota or Michigan. One of them is at a school and there are tents everywhere.

OK. So you can do that there. I know. Yeah. I mean, there will be an opportunity at the major exchanges to set up tents if you want, typically at least one of them. Well, I'm just thinking like what could be better than like spending the? Extra money on a hotel, but better than like curling up in a van seat like a tent. Maybe I've never, I don't know, sleeping in those 15 passenger vans or 12 passenger is just a. Complete nightmare. Well, there's all this stuff. I can't imagine that there's anywhere comfortable. To sleep, yeah. So which is obviously that's not what it's about, but it's like that's the misery part for me will just be like the lack of sleep and also being with, well, my van is all people I know.

Are you Van one or Van 2? Van 11 because we finished first. So somebody else wanted to be van two and I was like, oh, because at first I put us as van two because I was like, well, you know, I just want to give people the opportunity. Just because I'm the captain doesn't mean I should pick everything and whatever. And so I'm trying to be a good teammate. But then I think it was because somebody was going to wanted to start later in that van. And so I was like, OK, that sounds good because I want to be done first so that I can enjoy the the Airbnb.

So sorry for my teammates that may be listening that are in van 2, but van one all day. Yeah, I've done van too. Yeah. The very first Ragnar we did, we are actually short somebody and so three of us had to run 4 legs and we were Van too. And it was I, I like Van one better. Yeah, just me. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out which legs like. Which what I want it because I'm just kind of like, I don't really care. Somebody tell me. But everyone, all the women are like, we don't, you know, whatever. So, well, the other thing too is the way they rate their legs.

You're going to have to like analyze them yourself because the ratings are not legit, OK. Like they'll they'll they'll put something as like, oh, this is expert level because of of something that is to a runner probably fairly insignificant. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So Eileen Poor is my van. OK, She's. Done Ragnars before and. You know she's a. Beast. And so it's like, OK, so she's like, put me wherever you want me, right? And so we'll probably give her the the hardest thing to do the the Ragnar leg, they call it. I think you get a special medal for running that leg. The hardest leg?

Oh I didn't know that and y'all have to fight her for it. There you go. No, I'm good. It'll be fine. I know that like no matter what I run, it'll be it'll be hard enough. So because part of me is like, oh, I really want to challenge myself. But on the other hand, you're like, OK, well it's all going to be really challenging, so it'll be fun. Well, good. That advice is so incredibly helpful because yeah, I've read some pretty good blog posts about like, thinking about packing and stuff, but I really need to be thinking and preparing better now than like right before where I'm like freaking out and trying to like last minute stuff.

Go do, go do that, David Goggins, 4 by 4 by 48. Have you ever heard of that? No. Christie's done it. My brother's done it. You run 4 miles every four hours for two days. OK, So 4 by 4 by 48. Yeah. So you start. I don't know. If you start in the morning, 8. 12, 48124 They typically did it. I feel like they did it in the late fall or early, early spring. So still relatively cold out. You want to talk about practicing not sleeping? You know, you go to bed at midnight and you have to get up at 4 and run again. You're not going to get a lot of sleep.

And that's, that's something I want to do soon. Like I, like I said earlier, I love doing different things and exploring different things. That's something I want to do soon is a challenge. Yeah, yeah, OK, that's that can be a good segue. So I want to ask. You the end of the podcast questions. There's so much else we could talk about TJ like, Oh my gosh. Do you listen to music when you run? Sometimes sometimes. OK, so do you have a favorite song or mantra for running? I do have AI do have a couple songs. The one song, that is. There's two so the one song that I I kind of was my my go to song early on.

It was my hammer time song was the pretender or pretender by the Foo Fighters. Like that was my and then as it's evolved and like if I'm running really hard races, you know, like kick start my heart by Mötley Crüe will be kind of a get me up and go. Those are my two that stand out over and above the rest. I have certain playlist, but I would say those are my two. And then my mantra is probably you're not going to die. I always tell my daughter that I'm like, look, you're not going to die. At the end of the day, it's all about getting comfortable with uncomfortable and it's getting comfortable with the increasing levels of discomfort.

You know, there's, and I think I don't want to digress too much because I know we're coming to the end here, but I think that's important, especially for marathon training is that we LOL ourselves. If you're training for a marathon into a particular level of discomfort and it's typically whatever you feel when you're doing your longer tempos. So I have, I encouraged people go run a 5K, go run a 10K, go run a fast mile race before you hit your marathon. Because the biggest change for me in marathoning was realizing that I wasn't going to die when the pain came at 18 or 20. Because normally what happens is you hit 1819, you're like up there's the wall.

And then you like, I got to get back to how I was feeling the 1st 18 miles. So it eats at you and you slow down and you slow down and you slow down. If when that comes, you're like, oh, this kind of feels like 1/2 marathon now, I'm fine, I'm not going to die. I got this. And then two miles later, oh, boy, this feels like a 10K. And then it feels like a 5K. And then that last mile and 1/2, it feels like you're running a hard mile. If you have those reference points, you don't freak out. Yeah, you're like, I know this, but if all you've done is short.

Intervals and. Slower, longer tempo work. When that comes, you're like, oh boy, I'm dead. I'm dead. And thus is the wall. So. That would. Those are my songs, and that's my mantra. Yeah, I really like that. You're not going to die. I think about the pain. Cave a lot and I think ooh I want to live in the pain cave. I want to get so comfortable in the pain cave. I actually thought of this yesterday. I was doing a Tabata Peloton ride, which those are just. I saw your graph sucks. I saw your Yeah, it wasn't it beautiful except. My Internet kept going out. So like there's like bits of it.

I'm like fucking that's a, that's a Courtney Walter reference here. Courtney to Walter. Yeah, Kane, Kay, I I'm sure that's where I got it from. And courting it 'cause it's just like, yeah, you have to be comfortable being super uncomfortable and just knowing, like you just have to get used to this feeling. It's not great. It doesn't feel great. But if you're used to that, I think that's what allows you to push harder or just push through it. Yeah, I totally agree. You're not going to die. And you know, I've had conversations recently too about the mental aspect of running too, and I think that that just kind of ties right into that.

It's like, you're not going to die, it's fine. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. And then future stuff, future finish lines, milestones, what's coming up for you? Obviously we've talked about Prairie on Fire September 7th, that's a great, but you're not, you're not running that, you're running that as in organizing that, correct. I'll do it next year, I hope, if we can get enough. People to help Corey and John are going to kind of they they help pretty considerably during the execution of that. So I'd love to run that next year for me, you know, I don't know. One of the the things that I have fun with is we've done 2 projects where we've run every Rd.

in the city of Carmel. And then we did, we just finished Westfield. So maybe Noblesville, maybe I'll run every Rd. in Noblesville. That's kind of my next potential. I did the half back when they had the half. I did it. Me too, yeah. Yeah, maybe we did it the same year. I it's been a while. It was for me. 2018 because I was training for New York, OK, and I used it as a training run to have some company. It might have been it was somewhere between 16 and 18 that I did it. Yeah, it was a nice race. I was kind of bummed that it's gone now, but you know.

We're yeah. So maybe that'll be it. I'm a little. I'm a little Noblesville is a very like geographically large area, you know, because it goes all the way out to Hamilton Town Center and then all the way to Gray Rd. on the West. So you know, where Carmel in Westfield and Carmel took us about 3 months to do Westfield. We did it probably in the same time frame over a number of summers. But that sounds like fun running Prairie at some point, you know. And then like last weekend, I think I might start to explore more ultra stuff again, just because the road running and the racing, it becomes so arbitrary at some point, you know, you, you put those big goals out there for yourself.

And a lot of times I think they align with societal goals. Like 4 hours in a marathon is huge and then three hours in a marathon is huge. But then once you run 245, like, yeah, now what? And who knows what that means? Yeah, right. Who cares? Yeah. OK, you know, and, and so I think. Those are are breaking 20 in A5. K or 25, whatever your goal is there, there are these like, and then you just get into this it, it becomes completely arbitrary. So there's some other things that I'd like to explore, but I think those are potentially, you know, and then and then finalizing that last race, you know, we had, I'm wearing a hat for the MTC SEC5150, which is a race we did for my mother.

Yeah. We didn't talk about your mom. Let's talk. Can we talk about your mom? Yeah, we can talk. About her So my mom. And so, so growing up, my mother was kind of the, she was into fitness before it was a thing, you know, she was doing. She was always in shape. She, she walked an hour to two hours a day for 30 years and was always, you know, like exploring new, you know, the complete antithesis of her son. But she was exploring like when Weight Watchers first started and all of these different diets. That's why I called her when I moved to Seattle. But ANYWAYS, she was diagnosed in 2015.

We had started seeing some things and she had come down to crew me in that race across Tennessee. And I noticed some things on the drive down there that were a little kind of disconcerting. And so the following year she was diagnosed with something called MSA, which MSA is like Parkinson's and ALS, like on steroids. What were the things that you noticed? Movement. Like frequent bathroom breaks, like really frequent, you know, I remember we drove down there was 4 1/2 hours and we stopped like 6 times there and, and there were just some and, and nobody could really figure it's such a rare thing. And so they finally diagnosed her.

So essentially it acts like both of those diseases. You say mentally acute, but it just slowly robs you of your movement, your mobility. And so that's a huge inspiration for me, you know, and she broke her hip and that was as as you, you hear that a lot about older adults when they have those broken bones later in life. That is a massive set back Prior to that though, she was and this is, you know, you want to talk about running monsters or things you look to. She would get on the treadmill still and walk a mile a day. Took her an hour but like would continue to try to keep moving to forego what ultimately would end up happening.

So in 2020 we put a race together for her called the MTC 5150. It was a fifty mile run or 150 mile bike ride and it was from Cotoie Park ish right down there in Noblesville up to Marion. We raised $60,000 for the disease. But she is, she is kind of probably the spark that started MTC because that's where our point of reference was when it comes to doing things to help maintain your fitness and, and create longevity. So she's been a huge beacon. You know, there have been a number of races where I've gone out like my first, you know, the first time I went under, I think 3O2 in a marathon, you know, was like, she was still alive.

And it was like gratefulness, right? Like, hey, mom can't move, at least you're here. And she would give anything to be here. And then I ran that marathon in late January of 23 when I set my PR and she had died three weeks earlier. And my brothers and I had already planned on going out there. And we were like, what should we do it? And we're like, mom would want us to. And you want to talk about having like, you know, you're running that last 10K and you're like, mom's with me. And it was pretty epic. And then, you know, I I've since then, Robert Jackson, who's really big in the community here, his he had the same issue.

His mother passed shortly before Sam Costa in Boston. And so I was able to kind of connect, say I went through the same thing, man. Like, you know, but it's it's it's now you go out for the longer runs and, hey, you know, have a conversation with mom while you're out there. Hey, Mom, you couldn't do this the last couple of years kind of come along with me. So it's be cool. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, yeah, it's I think a lot about. You. Get to you that do. This like you're here, you're able to do this Like what a gift, yeah. And to see that it can come for anybody, you know, that's the big.

Thing she took care of herself like nobody that's what really makes me mad like I get you know it's. Like people like that who just, you know, always the beacon of hell taking care of herself, you know? And it just so like you said though, take it while you can, right? And I and I try to impart that on the kids, you know? You know, I'm sure you and myself and anybody who's an athlete now, you look back and like, man, what could I have done if I did, like, locked in like this at 23? Yeah, exactly right. It's like. But yeah. You know, what can you do?

But yeah, now you have. You know you can set. That example for your children and you can do that for yourself, whatever that means and looks like today, that's what I'm trying to do. So do you still do that? That race? We've thought about bringing it back and potentially. The race that we're talking about in late fall, naming it in the same light, like kind of after somehow integrating her in some way. Yeah. You know, that'd be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. So we. Will. See. Yeah, yeah, gosh. And then the. Running around Noblesville, it's like talk about like spreadsheets and planning. Do you have to like city strides?

Like if you're if you're bored. Honestly, and you want to do something, hit up city strides and you can connect Strava or Garmin or whatever. It will import all of your historic runs and then you can go. Like I will tell you this, I I don't live in Carmel, but I live 3 miles north, right? I live in Noblesville, Westfield, right on the border. There's nothing cooler than. Exploring the entire. City on foot there, like there's some parts that are awful, you know, but like again, my Trent has done every Rd. in Marion up in great county. You don't have to worry about wild dogs down here.

Typically up there. You do so like doing Carmel or you know, like we did the West side of Westfield. Like it's so cool. There's so many. You know, like in West Clay and exploring. Oh yeah, that whole neighborhood. Like I could just do that. Like to start. Somewhere like running that whole village because there's it's I mean that's a lot, yeah, but it's it's so cool and and anytime you meet. Anybody you can always start the conversation with I've run by your house because I have unless no matter where you live, I've Yeah. So you go in every like. Every cul-de-sac, every wow you can exclude.

Streets like on the platform itself, so like you don't have to run down Keystone or you don't have to run down Meridian. And they've excluded the, I think all of them at this point. So gated neighborhoods like you don't have to sneak in. That makes sense. Or like parking lots, right? I mean. Obviously, I mean well here, so we were doing Westfield and I don't. Know how familiar you are, but like 146th and Cary, there's that, There's a gas station. There's yeah, the the fresh time and then the fresh time, the road. That we one of the roads we didn't. Have was the road between the gas station and fresh time.

So like we had to park in that parking lot and, and then, and then sometimes you'll get like there are certain apartment complexes that the entire apartment complex is one Rd. There's one in particular in Carmel that's like that. So you're running like 6 miles to get one Rd. But but then you'll get in the, you'll get lucky sometimes and you'll get in these complexes where like every 50 feet is a different Rd. Oh yeah. So you're like like clocking 40. Roads in one run and then other times. It's two or three, but it is my buddy and Dan Courtney and I did did Carmel together and then my brother Todd and I did Westfield for the most part.

But it is so much fun to explore. So City Strides you, you know, Anthony Bruns is almost done all of Denver. That's so cool. I've looked at Indianapolis, but Indianapolis? Would take like 6. Years well and it'd be sketchy. Yeah, it would it would be. I have. Friends. Well, the New Shoe Day, some people from New Shoe Day did that. Yeah. Was it all of Marion County or something like that? I forget. Oh, I'm sorry, I forget. PC Kraus did. He did like, what was it like 1001 city? He ran 1000 miles like within the city. I've I've butchered that. But there's a thing they did something similar.

They've got something coming up. I think they've they've got something up. They do this. Weekend on the 10th? Yep, on the 10th they have a 5K. Virtually or 8:00 AM athletic annex and Nora and then there's another previous guest I had on who's they have a 5K also this I saw you advertising that Yep, because I I'm doing it virtually. I might do it in. Person if I can get my girls excited, there's a splash pad out there. So be like come with mom, like we'll do this run and then you can play because you had you had Nate on special and he is. Part of an issue day, and he has, he's been a real integral part there.

When Cameron had his explosion on Instagram. Oh yeah. Because he, yeah, had that video. I know. It's amazing. Cam went from 1700 followers to 42. 1000 I noticed that because I'm thinking. At the beginning I was like, how the hell does he not have a following? Like, look what he's doing, but it's just getting in front of the right people and like getting the word out and then what? And you know, one of the things with Cam, what we talked about with him. Imagine, you know, early on, he's so grateful because he knows that his existence, like he, because he's down to like survival mode is completely contingent on everybody else.

So I'm thinking about, he's out here 10 hours a day thinking about that all day. Like I need, you know, thank goodness that person in the cafe bought my meal today because I wouldn't have eaten breakfast otherwise. Or thank goodness I got that donation or I wouldn't have been able to do X or whatever. And so you think about that for 10 hours a day, and then you jump on Instagram to thank everybody. Yeah. Because, you know, that's all you've been thinking about. It seems insignificant. But then what it becomes is an Instagram feed of 500 thank yous. Yeah. And from an algorithm and from a content digestion standpoint, you're like, alright, dude, we get it.

You're grateful. Yeah, and it's not. And so John help came in and helped him kind of articulate his story a little bit better, curate his constant a little bit better and then, you know, help people understand what he's doing and bring them along with the journey while working in that gratitude. And I think that was what just. I mean, he had three reels over a million views. Yeah. So cool. It's been pretty cool. Can't wait to see the phone. We'll have to. Get him in here, yeah. We will. I know I tried. I tried, we went back. And forth via e-mail while he was out there.

And I just. Yeah, I was like, you know what? Just wait till he gets home. I'd rather do it in person anyway. We could talk all day, TJ. We could. Yeah. But you got to eventually catch a plane. I do. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this. It was nice to. Finally really meet you and get to know you better. Thank you so much. Fantastic, thanks for having me. I am super stoked. I love the. Podcast everything you do with us for our races those awards are fantastic and I look forward to what both of us have going in the future yeah yeah, Amen All right well thank you everybody who's listened as.

Well, and happy running. Happy running. Booyah, Booyah. Oh, and if you like. This rate it. Review Share. You know the drill.

Ally Brettnacher