Episode 18: Leslie Gregory - A Diamond for Every Mile

Listener note: This episode includes discussion of postpartum anxiety and depression and a traumatic NICU experience.

After seven or eight lottery tries, Leslie Gregory ran the New York City Marathon for her 40th birthday, then built 26 Diamond, a bracelet brand that celebrates every marathoner's 26.2 miles.

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About this episode

Leslie Gregory grew up in a small town in Michigan, always knew she'd live in New York City, and spent years in fashion buying and planning before having twins. A college friend named Katie got her running 20 years ago when she was at her lowest, and Leslie has been a cheerleader at heart ever since. She finally got into the New York City Marathon at 40 and ran her first marathon in about 4:25.

We talk about her twins' early arrival at 32 weeks, postpartum anxiety and depression, and how EMDR therapy helped her process the NICU. Then we get into how she started 26 Diamond on a training run, snuck into a jewelry show to find a manufacturer, landed in Runner's World with one DM, and what marathon day felt like running past her old apartment on First Avenue.

In this episode, we discuss

• Growing up an only child and adopted in small-town Michigan
• Losing her college cheer scholarship and how her friend Katie got her running
• Moving to DC and then New York City for a career in fashion buying and planning
• Running the sidewalks of Manhattan and sneaking sneakers under her desk to run home
• IVF, twins born at 32 weeks, and a month in the NICU
• Postpartum anxiety and depression and why she recommends EMDR therapy
• Moving to the Connecticut suburbs and finding running again
• Entering the New York City Marathon lottery seven or eight times before getting in at 40
• How marathon training became the boundary-maker she needed as a people pleaser
• The idea for 26 Diamond on a 10-mile training run and a waterproof, tarnish-proof bracelet
• Her first business, the experts-on-demand app Accomplish
• Landing a Runner's World feature by DMing the editor in chief
• Prototyping on Etsy and walking into a Javits Center jewelry show to find a manufacturer
• Race day: the ferry, the quiet Queensboro Bridge, and her family under her old fire escape at mile 16
• Too much caffeine at mile 20, a stranger who ran her in, and why you need your name on your shirt

Chapters

• Intro
• Growing up in Michigan and a friend who got her running
• Finding herself in New York City
• Twins, the NICU and postpartum
• EMDR therapy and processing trauma
• Suburbs and finding running again
• Getting into the New York City Marathon at 40
• The idea for 26 Diamond
• Her first company, Accomplish
• Landing in Runner's World
• Sourcing diamonds and sneaking into a jewelry show
• Marathon day in New York
• Mile 16 and her next finish line

Where to find Leslie

• Instagram: @twentysixdiamond
• 26 Diamond

Mentioned in this episode

• Races: New York City Marathon, Chicago Marathon, Berlin Marathon, Monumental Marathon
• Organizations and charities: Runner's World, Indiana Owned, WISH-TV, Etsy, Javits Center, Pen and Pace
• Other: EMDR therapy, Accomplish (app), LMNT electrolytes

Previous guests mentioned

• Cindy Smith (Episode 29)

Related episodes

• Episode 30: Sarah Farny - You Can Do Hard Things
• Episode 23: Jay Eiteljorge - Every Damn Day
• Episode 6: Alex Baker - Strong All Along
• Episode 29: Cindy Smith - Powerful Moms

Frequently asked

Who founded 26 Diamond?

Leslie Gregory founded 26 Diamond, a jewelry company that makes athletic 26.2 bracelets set with 26 diamonds, after coming up with the idea while training for her first New York City Marathon.

How many times did Leslie Gregory enter the New York City Marathon lottery?

Leslie Gregory entered the New York City Marathon lottery at least seven or eight times before getting in the year she turned 40, and ran it as her first marathon.

How did 26 Diamond end up in Runner's World?

Leslie Gregory sent a DM to the Runner's World editor in chief after noticing he was from near her Michigan hometown, and he passed her collection to a writer who featured 26 Diamond.

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Sign up for my weekly newsletter, and follow along on Instagram at @allytbrett_runs.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically, so it may contain errors.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones with Ally Brettnacher. Incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals and fitness. This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets. Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting Athlete Bouquets Calm. All right. Hey, it's Allie Brettnacher and it's August. Can you believe that? Because I sure can't. I just tonight went to kindergarten orientation for our oldest daughter Sydney, and it was this two hour tour of the school. We got to meet her teacher, learn about all of the things, ride the bus, man. It's overwhelming. But. In a good way. I'm really excited for her.

She seems to be really excited. Also nervous, and I told her that's okay. It's a big deal. So I'm excited, but also kind of dreading Monday when I watch her get on the bus, but a ton of her friends will be on the bus with her. Her grandma, my motherinlaw, will actually be in the building. She is an I A. An instructional assistant, I think that stands for in one of the other kindergarten classrooms. So that sure feels good to have her there. And then also yesterday I was on live TV for the first time. So thank you again to Indiana owned an organization I'm a part of here in Indiana.

And to Mel, the founder, for inviting me to do the segment on WISH TV called Lifestyle Live, it was terrifying. But I did it. And I'm on the other side of it. So now I can look back and say that it was fun. I definitely was very prepared, which I think is what helped make it go smoothly. But I was so terrified. If you want to watch that clip, you can head over to my Instagram Athlete Bouquets. There is a link in the bio there, or you can head to the Indiana owned blog. I think it's up there as well. So without further ado, happy birthday to my guest, Leslie Gregory.

This episode is coming out on her birthday. At the end of the episode, I say it's coming out the day after her birthday. Clearly I had my days mixed up. This would be her 41st birthday because last year for her 40th birthday, she ran the New York City Marathon is her first marathon. It is so far her only marathon. So in this episode we talk about how Leslie came from a small town in Michigan. To New York City, it was always in her plans. And she talks about why. She talks about running in New York, how she's always been a cheerleader at heart. She was literally a cheerleader growing up, but then has started this company called 26 Diamond that is kind of part of cheering people on in their marathon journeys.

It's a jewelry company. She talks about the story of how that came to be. But before we get to that, we talk about her having her twins. They're now 8, but she went through hell of a journey having them. She said she had postpartum everything. So we talk a little bit about that and then we get into the marathon. We talk about how she submitted to the lottery seven or eight times. She thinks at least, and got in when she was 40. So it was, you know, she meant to be, had to do it. And then we talk about the story of her company, how she was recently featured in Runner's World.

And you'll have to, I'll put that article in the show notes so that you can check that story out. And I asked her a little bit more about how you even create a business in the jewelry industry. So we talked a little about that. And then we just talk about the New York City Marathon, what that day was like for Leslie, kind of what she's thinking about doing in the future, if there are any more marathons in her future. But I do say this at the end of this episode, and I still feel it. Now, just having listened back to it, I get so. Motivated and fired up being around women like Leslie, who is just so extremely driven and talented and building this awesome business.

So I know that you're going to love this conversation with Leslie. Leslie, thank you for coming. You say that you're awkward, but I bet you I can one up you and being more awkward, I am the most awkward. So going to be a showdown, going to. Be a showdown of who can be the most awkward during this interview, all right. Are you ready? Yeah. All right. So we met just Instagram, right? Yeah, that's totally it. Totally it. And I've been following your company 26 Diamond ever since and I absolutely love what you're doing. And we're going to get into all that. But before we do, just want to take a step back and get to know who you are, kind of where you're from.

To talk about your kiddos and then you know how you got into running and ultimately how you've started to build this business that you have, which is so cool, so okay. Give it to me. I'll go way back my my birthday. I'm turning 41 this week. So I was born and raised in Michigan in a very small town and I it was amazing. I have. I'm an only child and I'm adopted, and I think this kind of ties into my story later. I really, I'm very independent and I really like to have my own alone time. I think anybody who has only children will realize that very quickly, which kind of led into my running later in my life.

But I was a cheerleader and I went to college on a partial scholarship for cheerleading and but I wanted to. I wanted to leave Michigan and I wanted to you know the typical 18 year old. I wanted to figure out who I was and what I liked and where I wanted to be. And so I hit, I would say probably year two of college. I ended up quitting the team. I lost the scholarship I didn't like. I really loved the all girl team camaraderie aspect of cheerleading and I didn't like going to college and sharing with guys. And it just changed the dynamic of what was really important to my heart and why the sport was really good for me.

And so I lost the scholarship and I was really like a real depression, like year two, like sophomore year at college. So my I had was living in this house with these three other women now and it was a really toxic environment. Like really sad how everything ended up. We're all good friends freshman year and sophomore year. We weren't talking by the end of the year and I had this wonder. Her name is Katie and I'm looking for Katie. So Katie, if you're out there, please reach out to me. But Katie grabbed me one day and she goes, Leslie, you need to get out of this house and you need to come run with me.

And I was like, I don't run like I used to run for training, but we would run like one mile, 2 miles to warm up. And you know, it's not, it was nothing like what we're doing. And I was like, I can't run. I can't run past two miles. I've never done it and I can't do it. And she goes, I think you're going to die in this house if you do not come outside with me right now. And it I remember she was like, just wash my feet, don't look at anything. I'm like holding my disk. And I had like running on the side of the road at Grand Rapids, MI and she just said wash my feet.

And she took me that first time. I think it was like 2.9 miles. And then I think the next time we ran it was like 3.1. And she really gave me something. I don't know why. I never found it on my own, to be honest, but I took to it pretty quickly after that and I didn't. I also didn't. I didn't believe that I could try something totally different. At the time of my life, I was like, I'm just going to. I was a cheerleader and now I'm not and now I have nothing and I'm all depressed. And so she kind of gave me an outlet to be alone with the endorphins and the whole beginning of that.

I would say that experience kind of set me out of trajectory to where I am today. So I have been running essentially for 20 years and it she really I promised and I mean this and everything she she probably saved my life in a lot of a lot of ways. So I ended up through the inspiration of what we're doing. I ended up moving to DC, transferring to a different university, which is where I wanted to be in the 1st place anyway. And I was in fashion. So my background is in corporate like fashion buying and planning for fashion companies. So I've finished school in DC, took me like a year to get to New York, but New York was always the end game for me.

I didn't know what I was going to do in the beginning, but I knew I was going to live in New York City, and that was where I was going to discover myself. And it's kind of how it happened. I lived in New York for I worked for a bunch of fashion companies for seven years before I met my husband, and New York City was I. It still is the number one most influential piece of my life, I would say without that, without moving there and struggling there and being a part of it, I don't think that, I don't think that would have the career that I have.

I wouldn't have the family. I wouldn't. I mean everything really happened for me in that city. I lived on a very, very small apartment at 60th and 1st, 11 O 7 1st Ave. and it was like this fifth floor walk up and it was 350 square feet and it was a billion dollars. No, but it was felt like it was. And I was making nothing. And I love that apartment it had. It was like a giant rectangle. Giant is not the right word. It's very small rectangle with like a fire escape overlooking the Queens Road Bridge. And I used to like, smoke cigarettes and look off the Queens Road Bridge and like look into Bed, Bath and Beyond and to all these little apartments all over the city.

And I had like my own little place. And so I was running in New York City. So that's kind of also how I acclimate. I lived in Chicago for a little while for an internship. That's just how I get to know any place that I've ever moved. And I think that's one of my favorite things to do any vacation I ever have. I'm. I want my time to run and discover the city or wherever I am. And so I was running the streets in New York City. Like, I know a lot of people in New York, they're like, oh, we run on the West End Highway.

We run on the not me. I'm running on the sidewalks in amongst everybody. I like and it really like makes you focus too because I can Daydream running out here in the suburbs. I'm just, you know, running into trees and stuff. But in New York you really have to stay on. If you're running on the sidewalk, you have to stay on your game. And so I don't know it made me more of a present runner. And I also, I lived so on the bottom of the Upper East Side and my work was on the bottom of the Lower East Side. So I would I remember and I was in fashion, so I was like, I can't, I don't want to dress up.

It was those days with the heels, and the whole thing was a very different life. And now, and I remember I would, like, sneak my sneakers into my under my desk, in my office. And then I would wait till everybody left and then I would change them, like run home. I would run up the highway, I'd run through Central Park. And it was the best. Like, I don't know, New York City was everything that I hoped it would be in more. But I had always. So I'm on the marathon path. My apartment was and I would. I remember marathon day every year. I was like, this is insane.

Like these people are. How does this happen? Like how do you do what it. It was never an option that I would ever do this to me. These were like ultra athletes that very few in the world should ever attempt this insane feat. So it really didn't register while I lived there. Truly. And I would. I would watch it and I would cheer them on. I mean I would cry I'm, I'm a cheerleader at heart, truly. Like, I am everybody's biggest fan and I don't know, I just these seeds were being planted throughout my life that I didn't realize would culminate into what I'm building now.

But I just. I don't know. So New York has a special place in my heart. I meet my husband at a restaurant. We take a minute to get pregnant and get married. I had to do I VF twice that I had my twins who are now 8 going into third grade. And it was insane. It was totally insane. And I New York at that moment when I had the kids and I decided to stay home for a year, New York changed for me a little bit. So I was like, I couldn't turn off the work part of my brain. And I also had postpartum everything, all of it.

Anxiety, depression. We didn't know. We didn't get it. He didn't get it. I didn't get it. I remember like I want one night, and I don't say this lightly, I can talk about it now because I've had a lot of therapy and I have a lot of VMDR. So it's I couldn't. There were many times where I couldn't even speak about it. But I remember there were nights in the city where I would check the babies. We lived in a small apartment. It was a small two-bedroom apartment. I would check the baby's thermostat like 17 times. And at that point, even like my husband and I, we talk about it now, but this is like 8 years later.

We're like why didn't this? Why wasn't the red flag? We were also, the babies were born at 32 weeks, so they were early and that was probably one of the hardest, most difficult times of my life by far. Like not being able to bring them home and then saying like we don't know if they're going to, you know, be affected longterm or not for year, for year. And it was. It was it was all a big mess. And I, and this is a topic for another day, but I think there's a lot of work in our country needs to be done with women, the mothers that are in the NICU with the babies, not just the babies we need to.

I was in a dark room for a month alone listening to, like, heart rate monitors and that really messed me up. And I I, I have the ultimate sympathy for any parent who goes through anything like that. And if I can make any recommendation, it's EMDR therapy specifically because CBD therapy was great and it helped with a lot of things, But very through my thousands of hours that I've had, I've learned what a trauma really is. And for me, it's a memory that's not processed. So a trauma exides in your brain and until you process it into a memory, it remains A trauma which it connects to the feelings and the sickness that you feel when you talk about something that you can't talk about.

Say what it's called again. So EMDR. So it's. Yep. So what it really is, it's rapid eye movement desensitization. So what it what it does exactly is that there's a light bar that you look at and it's like a little strobe light, but it goes kind of slowly. And what happens is that if you have rapid eye movement while you look at the strobe light and you talk about this trauma that's stuck on the left side of your brain, what it does is the eye movement itself helps process the trauma into a memory. It's incredible. No, I'm telling you, I've done all the therapy, all the kinds.

I've never even heard of that. It's it's really you can do it on zoom. I did it all through COVID on zoom because my kids during COVID they were 4 1/2 just turned 5. I still couldn't talk about the Nikki without really being a mess. And I found this therapist who she was like, I think you need the MDR. I said I'll try whatever, whatever, whatever it takes at this point. And she changed my life. And it was from what I understand, the little that I know, it's very specific instances, not like a long duration of time. It helps me because I can isolate the month in the NICU and help me because it isolate the tough birth that we had.

I can isolate very specific times of life. So wait, it was, I don't want to say successful, but it was. I can speak about this to you. Yeah. And not cry. So that was tough. But then so we decided, my husband, I remember we bought this apartment Uptown and I'm like, I don't know, something didn't feel right. We ended up moving to the suburbs. I'm also from like 5 acres in the middle of the farm. And so we came out here to Connecticut when the babies were one year old. And then I found suburb running and I was like, oh, this is not the same.

It's not. It's not. And when you live in the middle of nowhere like that's we really do live in the middle of nowhere. We have like we're like in the woods and which I like. But it's also, it's different, it's just energy, a lot different than New York. And then I kind of found my footing again, like it took me a minute and I think that I was going through some bouts of like some depression too. But I found I found running again in a different way. And I found it like I was so devoted to my kids and I like, quit my career. And I quit everything.

And I was like, well, this is not right. I totally gave up myself. And once I came into running again in a different capacity, like, oh, maybe I'll do a little 5K or, you know, maybe I'll just put myself out there just as a runner and not just running alone in the woods. I don't know. I just started feeling you. I mean, everybody knows. You just start feeling better. It's just you. It's all even just little purposes along the steps of pulling yourself out of early motherhood, which is God bless anybody who is crushing it. I did not crush it. Not crush it at all.

Well, two babies. I mean, it was tough. I also, I don't know. I just, I think, I think some people, and I envy them, have a very natural capacity with babies. I think that I am not a baby mother. I'm much better now that they're older and that I can't break it. And I know and I know it's it's insane. I did. I enjoyed it as much as I possibly could, but now I'm enjoying it more. I I relate to that, I will just say that truly. Yeah, it's completely fair and that's it. So I think when I started dipping into, so I went back to work a little bit.

I took a year off, went back to work a little bit. I dipped it back and forth into fashion. And then I started in another company when the babies were two, and we put pause on that just recently. But I had entered the New York City Marathon lottery since I moved to Connecticut. I was like, you know, this is doable. Like people are just downloading these plans online. And maybe if I just found one of those random plans, somebody will make sure that I cross the finish line. That's all really I was going for. I was like, but I didn't for years, for years and years.

So I think I applied. I don't know, truly, at least seven or eight times and never, never got in the lottery. That's crazy. And then I remember I was like, okay, I'm going to do it one more time. I'm turning 40. It would be really cool to run the marathon at 40. And I remember I was sitting on my son Jack's bed and I got like, we were reading books or whatever right before bedtime. And I'm like, checking my e-mail and I was like, Oh, my God, I got in and Jack screams and I'm screaming. They don't even know what I was talking about. We're all just like, screaming right upon my husband, like, what's going on?

And I'm like, I'm running the marathon. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm running the marathon. Like, it really. I was like, shit, I really have to do this now. Like, this is thing, you know? And that's, I mean, it's really, I'm speaking lightly about it now. But it was one of the most profound days of my life as a human being, not even just as an adult. Like everything that everybody said it was going to be. It was even better. And I remember when I was training, which for anybody who's done a marathon will know that the training is the biggest time suck, but the best boundary maker of anything I've ever had.

I've never been able to say no. I'm such a people pleaser that this I was finally like, it was just a built in part of this process which was really great for me. Like I finally was like, no, I'm not, I can't, I'm running, I can't, I can't. And it was through the training. And I don't know, you guys know this like it's I solved all of my problems when I'm running, or I think I do anyway. All right, I tried it. But it was during one of those 80,010 mile runs that I was like, I remember when 10 miles was like an easy day and I was like, right.

It's weird. It's so weird. I'm like on average, normally like 3-4 miles a day like that before, right? And I'm like super with that. And then I remember it was like a light 10 mile and I was like, what if what planet have we stepped on? That's when I was like, what am I going to give myself for running in this marathon? Like this is a big deal. I don't know what hit me and I know this is, but it's very much my personality. Like, I really realize in the moment I was like, this is one of the biggest accomplishments I will ever, ever have as an adult, right.

Like what? What amazing things happen to us 40 plus that you can really say is, you know, life changing. And I, I don't know, I just was like, I was I'd like stopped running and I'm like on this weird hill by my house where you'll die if you stop running. So I'm like just scrolling through my phone and cause you're like honking at me and I'm like just I I'm busy. I'm busy and there was nothing out there that I felt acknowledged. The sacrifice and the. I don't know the weight of the achievement that I was. I had yet to make. I had not done this yet, so this could have all this could have gone sideways.

But I don't know. I just feel like I don't. I still don't understand why no one is out there doing something incredibly big. I live, there's a lot of companies that do really great stuff, so I'm not saying that at all. I just wanted something that I can wear always, that I can wear when I'm running, that I can wear when I'm showering, that is strong, that won't tarnish. When I was building this, actually, I'm a follower. Maybe it was even you. If possible. Somebody reached out and told me that Tiffany's did a silver one for a San Francisco marathon a long time. Ago. Yeah, no, I didn't realize that.

And it tarnished. And I was like, come on, come on people, We can do better. We can do better. We're marathon runners like this is this is something I can solve. And I was like, not want to, I do not want to make another company right now. I was just wrapping up my other one, which is in a totally different sector. And I was like liking my kids now that they're older. The whole thing was I was like finding my groove, found this new school, like really happened with my friends out here. And I just couldn't. It's this has happened to me only one other time.

I just couldn't shake it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go on Etsy. I'm going to make a prototype and I'm just going to see if it even looks good and then it looks awesome and then I was like okay. Now I really I mean it just it was just it was one of those things where when you hit that flow of work or life like rarely that you know you're like I'm on to something like there's something to be done. And that's how it was born. That's how 26th time came came to be right before it was it was actually a year it's it'll be the company will be a year old in three days.

He was born on my birthday. I was gonna say, wait, yeah, you have a similar birthday born on my birthday, Yeah. But did you literally, like, open the shop or like, hit publish on the website on your birthday? Exactly. That's some fun. It was. A present. It was also like, It was also like, okay. Now I'm really doing this. Do you mean like, I'm really running this marathon? I'm really doing this company? I'm really making it. I really I would get those highs where I was like Oh my God, this is really it. Like this is this is something and I'm going to commit. I'm going to commit five years to this to see where this this where we are now.

So far, which is almost been a year I'm as far surpassed anything I could have imagined like I just you guys everybody knows when you when you find your thing and you hit your stride like really good. Listen, I'm saying I'm not saying this is forever, but I'm saying it's something that I'm really proud of right now and I'm really, I get to cheer people on all over the world, which is like it is everything. If you could line up like my top five paper things to do, it is it's here, we're here. We've arrived. It's amazing. The running community is so incredible, and I don't.

There's a lot about fashion companies that are tough. And I've been there and I've, I've helped a lot of big companies through this. But like, I don't know, there's something, something small and beautiful about being able to look down when you're having a tough day and remember that you ran a fucking marathon. I don't know. It's a pretty big deal to me. And it still is. And I'm. I'll be going to keep on one. It might be. I might be one and done and that might be it. But I will be there at mile 16 underneath my fire escape, cheering everybody else on for every New York City Marathon until I'm done.

I promise that forever. So what What was your other business before you had 26 Diamond. So it's called accomplish. It is in the App Store actually. But we paused it. So what it is, it was built in 2017 ish. It took a year to build. So what it is, it's experts on demand focused on small businesses, startups and entrepreneurs in and around New York City. So the purpose was I was actually approached by a a mom around here who I knew a little bit and she was like she started this. It's actually really cool story. She started this T-shirt company and she was like, hey, I know you know how to make companies profitable because that's what I did.

And she said we take a look at why I'm not making money on this or what I can do to help me. So I was like, sure, so I look at this and I was like, this is not for you, this is not your you don't like this, what are you doing? And you could just tell she was trying to do something, which I totally respect. And she said, you're right, this is not what I want to do. I'm just trying to do something. She also had two little babies and she said what I really want to do is this. I'm a software developer. I just don't know how to run the business aspect of it.

But this is what I envision. I envision sitting down at a Lepan Quotidian and turning on myself. She is a software marketing expert, being able to see across a coffee shop to another expert of any type, whether it's, I don't know, legal or accounting or anything, and us being able to pay each other for our time and collaborate on whatever we're working on. So it's like in the moment, turn yourself on, pay for 15 minutes of your expertise for whatever business you're working on. So when I heard the idea, I was like, Oh my God, this is the best idea ever. Why doesn't this exist?

It's like a working LinkedIn if LinkedIn and LinkedIn has tried to iterate this a couple times like mentorship program. But it's not like that. It's like you are good at something. You should be able to charge whatever you want for your time. So we ended up having people on the app for all different types of payments. So it could be like we had like a $900.00 an hour lawyer on the app. And I was like you're not, good luck, you're never. That was not fun. But then we also had like random people who just wanted to make a couple 100 bucks a day or like a week consulting for small companies.

And I did that and we. So we it was really like it was amazing. It was a genius idea. It still doesn't exist in full, but we built like the infrastructure and we started, we did it for I want to say 5-6 years and then COVID hit and then we had our best year financially when COVID hit because everybody was consulting via Zoom. And so we have, we really believed in the inperson part of the business because I think that when you sit across from somebody the symbiosis is real and I think the progress is a lot, much more productive. But COVID hit, we still were consulting, but we were both like this is not our passion and we're not going to be the ones that are going to make this scale to what it needs to.

So we are in the process right now of selling off probably part of it we would like a partner we need, it needs to have somebody who can self populate. So that was kind of what the lead that was. I couldn't shake that idea. I was like, this is one of the best ideas I've ever heard. It doesn't exist. We did it for a while, but we need somebody bigger, needs to take it and do something bigger with it. It needs to be more than just New York and more than just her. And I like 2 stay at home moms just trying to do it.

But we did it and we had two published apps in the App Store and it was really awesome. It was a cool experience. Yeah, that's amazing. It was hard. Yeah, it was hard. It was nuts. But I have to say, like, I was on fire, you know, like when you find something that you're on fire for. I don't know. It's the first time I ever looked at the process and not the end game. And that's kind of my plan for this company, too. I want to enjoy the moment. I want to be here, and I don't have a plan, but that's as far as I'm going to do.

I'm going to let myself try to just exist. Yeah. Well and you made it into runners world which is incredible and that's I think that's when we we met via Zoom not too long after that I feel like I don't remember I'm so. I don't know what, Yeah, it was today. It's finally August. But yeah, but we did and and I just was, I was impressed that you were in and you had a wonderful story. So talk a little bit about how that happened. You know I I really believe that and I've seen it with my company right now more than I've ever seen it before.

I can. The amount of time and effort that I put into this is exactly what is coming out of it. I can even see like the amount of time I put into and I and I can't. I'm so bad at social media, but like everything, every hour I put in social media I see exactly how many pieces I will sell and every it's it's very correlative. So with this my plan was OK, I'm going to reach out to every publication ever to exist on on the planet and just cold call them essentially like cold emailing, doing the research, the editors writing the cover story, like saying take a look at my line and really it was just like I didn't know what I was asking for which truly.

So I hope that everybody out there does it better than this. But I was like pretty much just introducing myself like hi, I made this thing and this is it and but what's incredible now with social media if you do it right, like you can reach out to the editor in chief of runners World because he is on he takes the M's which is insane. So I was doing all these emails. I probably at this point have spent, I don't know 2000 emails minimum that I'm already well into the five thousands. And this was nobody was reaching out to me. I went into the editor in Chief's DMI know I saw he was from Michigan.

This is what happened. I saw that he was from town, close to my town. And I DM him. And I was like, listen, I was like, I'm also from Michigan. This is a big reach. I was like, would you, would you just take a look at the line and just see what you guys think? Even if it was nothing, like if I didn't expect the story I'd had, I really had zero expectations. I was just like this woman running around being like, just take a look and tell me somebody look at it and tell me if I'm not. And he sent it to Amanda, who was this amazing, incredible, generous writer.

And he, she essentially, like, reached out to one of my 8000 cold emails that I had already sent. And she was like, oh, hey, you were already in my inbox, Which, of course I'm not going to look because they're like, who is this random person? And she goes, let me take a look. And so I sent her the collection. I was like, can I drive it to you guys? Do you need. They're like, no, drop it in the mail. So kind. Everybody was so nice. And I was like, Are you sure? Like can I get you lunch? Like, I don't know. Like this is a big deal and be like, no.

And they were so nice. And then she did this whole she interviewed me. And I'm telling you, I just, I'm so bad I can't be on Zoom. I'm not a I'm not a normal human being. But. She was so kind and so thoughtful, and I remember like I towards the end of it, I think I cried on Zoom and she I think she just heard, she heard a story. That was why I think the marathon is such a special thing too, is that it's not just for runners. I am a jogger. I'm a jogger who jogs and I am not a professional runner. And yet there is a process that can take me from start to finish to be an accomplished athlete in my 40s.

It's totally insane. It's one of the coolest things that you could possibly challenge yourself and people are doing all the time. Like, I. And I don't want to digress from Amanda, but I remember at the end of the marathon I was watching like the final athlete come in and I'm just like just pouring my my daughter. I'm holding my daughter and there's just like tears streaming on my face. I'm like these people are credible, like everybody is amazing. So that's my goal this year is I want to be at the end and I want to give them a bracelet. Whoever it is, I want to be there and I am just I just can't believe that we get to be a part of this.

But so Amanda back to she just gave me this great around 20 minutes and I was like, is there anything here like this is even I was like do you like it? Like do you like it. And then she even she ended up wearing it when she was running in Miami. And I was like the whole thing was just it was insane. It was not to be expected. And then when it came out it we probably it was the best thing that happened to the company for sure in the ever in the whole year that we've been alive. And I think I'm just really grateful that Jeff answered the DM and I talked to him like I know him.

I don't talk to Jeff. We're not he doesn't know at all Jeff but then he took a chance on and Michigan you know it's it's been hard in the way that I didn't know like I don't have any connections I didn't have any like I really I had to sneak into a jewelry show like don't tell anybody but there's really there's this was not a company that I had anybody help me with and which was also part of the fun. So I think that really taking those chances and, you know, sending those messages and cheering these people on, putting yourself out there, which is what we're all doing, is runners.

If you're signing up for a race like that, you know, I think, I think, and also when you turn, when you get older, you don't care, like, right, Like I don't have any ill and ill will he listen, if you don't want to read it, fine or answer it, that's totally fine. But I it was just a really happenstance thing that I saw that he was from Michigan and I DM him and he connected me with Amanda and Amanda was the kindest person ever. And then this piece came out and I don't know it gave me and you know what I also thought I didn't know this.

I also thought I was like OK, so if this is the strategy that but then I get sucked into like this tunnel of of social media which I can't stand. So it's like, so I I'm still back to my old emails. I still do the 1000 adds no answers nobody. And even though this one piece happens so it's like you know it's it's hit or miss, but I think it's it's just you got to take those chances. You got to try. Yeah, Amen. To grind well and I I feel like the hardest part for me with athlete bouquets too, has been like, I don't know what holds me back, but I'm just like this is just me.

So if I put it out there and it fails, it's like my thing failed. If people don't like it, it's they don't like me, right? It's like, but that's not, I don't know, I I constantly have this mental battle with myself and I have to stop and be like, no, shut the fuck up you've had, you know? Over 2000 orders. That's what. When you and I talked, I have to interrupt you because that's what I said. You were like, yeah, you know, I just like a small shop Etsy. And you're like, yeah, I have like 2000 transactions. I was like, hold on. What? That's incredible.

That's an incredible accomplishment. I have not had 2000 transactions. I'll just catch you up little. Different in terms of the price point, but still, yeah, no, still it's a big deal. We have to celebrate this stuff and we have to celebrate each other. Like you were one of the first people to take a call from me. I just wanted to hear about the space from you. And you were gracious not to give me that time. And I like, I don't know, I just feel like we and it's we're all runners too. So I think that there's something to ethos about the community that we want.

I want, I want everybody to succeed in anything, period. I really have nothing but hope for all of us. Right all this out there. Yeah, Amen. I I'm curious about this is going back and kind of off topic of sorts, but like the logistics of getting diamonds. Like, I know nothing about the jewelry industry at all. So like how do you even how do you do that Okay. Well I will. I will. I will start by saying when I decided after the Etsy. So Etsy I hired it was like like one of those companies where you can personalize a bracelet with your kids names or whatever and I was like put some rhinestones in it.

Let me just see if it looks what it looks like and I saw it. The 26 two was the only idea that I had at the time. And I was like, OK, this looks decent. So I made two or three of them from two different two or three different Essie shops and there was this jewelry. So there's in in New York City, there's fashion shows all the time and there's also exhibits where you can like go and sell your stuff, you know, like Expos and things like that. So I knew at the Javits Center there's this jewelry show that is like for both. It's for wholesalers or retailers.

You can go buy things for your store, you can sell things for from your brand, whatever. So I that was coming up. This is another reason the timing of this whole thing was totally insane. I came up with I built the company in August. I think I went to the show in September. I had prototype #3 or 4 on my wrist in October, so I had really wanted to run the whole year before I launched this. I didn't want to sell anything until I really put some miles behind this because I wanted to see if it snagged on the thing and I had to make all the changes.

But so I went to the show. I made a fake paper because I was going in as a a buyer and I wasn't working at the time. So I made a paper that said I was a buyer and that I was working for a company that I did not work for. And I went into the jewelry show and I took my little on my wrist and I just walked around. I was like, can you do this for real? Can you do this for real? Can you do this in gold? And give me some prices. So I I really had no idea what I was. Doing.

But I did know this. They want my business. Maybe I can help them make some money. Maybe we can make something happen. I was worried about. I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot that goes into it. So once I found like my 5:00, I don't know, manufacturers, I also wanted to make sure that they're ethically sourced. They're really, really small diamonds. So it's not like we're dealing with something like crazy, which is good. I don't. That's not for me. I also wanted, like I needed to make sure that my minimums weren't big. I wanted to make sure that I needed to know where it was produced.

I wanted to see the the factory. I wanted to see everything I wanted to see. I wanted to know where, where, what country we're coming from. I needed to know all the things because if we import, which we will hopefully soon in other countries, I need to have all this anywhere. So it's I also just need to know who I'm dealing with because I really cold and knew nothing and I found a really great partner and his name is Amman and he was it's super random. His father happens to be the head of like the triathlon association from where he is from which is like he kind of like got it immediately.

And I was I was like you can let's make this happen. And I said I really need. I told him my cost and I was like, I so a race is like like 250 ish. Let's just say the New York rail it's that's what you like get into the lottery and you're not like raising money. I needed this bracelet to retail under $500. It was really important. So I, I, I pretty much said, listen I like your product if you can make something needs to be this much money. I needed to be able to retail for under 500 because I want people to actually wear it and buy it.

I don't want this isn't fine jewelry and it needs to be it needs to be athletic. And he's like, what does that mean. So I had to explain, yeah, going to go through events like we're taking shirts on and off, we're we're scrubbing babies, we're running, we're training, we're swimming. I don't want it. I want it to be an everyday, all day long piece. And so he came back with the first one and then I said, wait a minute, I want to put 26 diamonds in it. And he goes, what? And I was like, figure it out. And he did. And that was, that was a real afterthought because I was like, why?

Why not? I mean, at this point I'm just like making stuff up anyway. So we could, you know, might as well. And then it came back and I was like, I love her. I love her so much. And she hasn't left my wrist. It's been a year. I want I want one soldered onto my wrist because I do have a permit one permanent bracelet. I'm like, could I like like to find a way to like, I don't know, do that would be really cool. You could totally do that. You could visit any local juror, any of them. OK. Yeah. That'd be even. That'd be even better.

Yeah, well, that's crazy that you've snuck it. I love that story. What a hustler you are. That's so amazing. Well, that's how you you have to you have to do that to make something happen. Yeah, you do. That's. So cool. I love it. I want to talk before we run out of time. I want to talk more about the marathon itself, because the marathon itself is it's a whole thing. I've. I can't remember. I'm sure I told you when we first met. I did it in 2018. And it was my first full marathon postpartum after my first baby, by the way, I went through all the.

I went through a week in the NICU and a Yeah, they all, yeah. So I relate a lot to your story as well. But yeah, the the New York Merit, there's nothing like it, Nothing like it. And so it's amazing that that's the one that you've done. It makes sense. It's the one you've done, but it's like also just such a cool experience. So. I want to hear more about that day from you. You got to run on top of the Verrazano bridge too, which I'm very jealous of because I had to run underneath with all the pee. Oh God, no. It was really like, I don't know.

I just, I knew. I knew that it was going to be special. I also went into it because I was like, I just want to finish. I think that changed my mindset too. So I know a lot. I respect anybody that's going for their time goals. God bless you. I am not going to. And I was just like, let's just do it and just get to the end. And that was the plan. But I trained, I trained planning for like, I don't know, I planned for like a four 15420 and I ended up 425. And I think, I don't know, not rushing. I really did.

I'd followed the random downloaded plan that I was told to follow and I did all the runs and I was like, OK, I guess I'm right. And then like don't run for a week. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? That keep me? Oh my God, you couldn't. I was like, what if I just run like 2 miles? Like maybe I can. Know it's so hard. Oh, my God, everyone's like, you look it up, you're like, do I have to taper? I mean, it's it's really scary. And so I I was like, I guess I'm ready. I spent the night at a hotel downtown by the ferry and that that whole ferry situation and you can look it up.

What a mess. God bless anybody who plans the logistics of a marathon. I can't you're you're doing God's work and I respect you for even trying. And New York it's what it's 55,000. I mean forget it. So I can't even I I it was all a hot mess. But we get on this ferry and you feel like Oh my God we've all traveled from all over the even the Expo. I cried like I cried at the Expo when I looked at my but I cried like when I put my name on the I cried all the time but I remember like getting on that ferry and like seeing these people and we're all just like silent but like the it's like the chatty nervous energy starting to happen and but little did we know like at the very beginning of what is going to be an insanely long pre marathon start.

My EA was 10/20 and I remember I'm like the bus situation last year was a horrendous like they were sadly there were some women who like didn't make it to their start. They had like attacks in the because it was like really hot and really crowded and people were pushing each other. It was really that was a tough New York community on that. But other than that, we get on the bus, you get to the start and I'm like, you're almost like, wait a minute, is this it? This is happening now like you because you're in the and it is really like a little village.

Like I don't know anything what to expect. I didn't. I don't want to up a lot of stuff because I was like I want to be. Yeah, I'm that way about most things, actually. With races, it's just like I kind of want to just be in the moment and be kind of surprised by us. Exactly. Exactly. And I also like I was like I have 4 hours of this, I better, I better keep some of this you know, secret. So I I don't know, I I start and I'm crying and I'm going over the bridge. I'm crying and it's like I had so I did half.

So my friend, I had a really good friend Adam, who who ran it I want to say last year or the year before me maybe 2019. He said Leslie if anything he goes don't run with music. And I was like I'm running with music. So I would run with half like I would do 1 Earpod and I and he was like, but turn it off when you get onto the bridge. And I was like, why? And he goes, because you're going to have you're mile 15 at the time and you're like you're going to have it's going to be really quiet and people are struggling and this was the hottest marathon that they've ever had with the one I ran.

So but it was good for me. I can I'm. I do decent in heat. So I was OK and I also wasn't I didn't care about my time. So I'm like every water station, all the Gatorade, I'm, I'm not whatever. So at mile 16 I remember, or 15 on the bridge, you're all climbing and it's so hard because you're like in it now. You're like in the thick of it and everybody's really quiet and you just hear these footsteps and you don't hear the spectators at all. And then you get to the top of the bridge and you start climbing down and you hear this roar from First Ave.

where my old apartment was, where my my family is standing underneath my old fire escape, where I would smoke my cigarettes and look at these people going, what in the world? And I just knew. And I knew I was going to come around that bed and see my kids and hug my husband. It was nuts. I cried. I cried. I remember running out And then you could hear this roar. And as an adult, like that's one of the beauties. The spectators in New York City are just best for the best. I saw some I saw women in Brooklyn like pulling bananas out of their bag and just like handing like I mean just just passer by who are just a part of it because they live here and this is just who they are.

The marathon is just a it's a beautiful day it's you can see all walks of humanity in in 4 hour span of time. And I remember crossing running down that bridge and I could hear this Thunder like underneath the bridge and you hit 1st Ave. and it's just like at 1st Ave. straight for a long time you're going slightly uphill and that was my old hood like that was my place where I grew up. Like I found my career. I met my husband. I had my babies. I lived. I lived there and I got to do it and it was just so special. And I remember kissing them and I remember hitting mile 18 and I was like, I can do this.

And then I was like, wait a minute. So I just have to say this is a big mistake. My part I I trained with all the caffeine gels, all of them. And I was like, I this is the one I like, This is I'm good, everything. What I did not realize was that I should not have all the gels, caffeine. So I I had like a like a minor panic attack around mile 20. And I was like, I think I'm having an anxiety attack. And I was like, Oh my God, I had too much caffeine. Like, it really all hit me because I'm eating religiously every six miles.

And I was doing great. But just guys. Not everyone. Not everyone like 8, whatever it is. Yeah. And that was like my real blip. And then I was like, God, so I'm like in the park and we're going around. And the park was tough. That was hard after about 20. This is real. This is real. And it was so long and I was like, where's the end of the spring? Yeah, I know. And I I start walking and I'm like because my IT band, which I never felt until that moment started hurting. And I call my husband, I'm like, just take the kids back to the hotel and don't wait for me because like, I don't know what's going to happen.

I don't know, I might walk the rest of this, which is fine. And this girl who was standing in front of me, I call her girl because she was young and gorgeous in front of me at the Porta potties at the started at the Village. She and I got talking and she came up to me behind me. She came from behind She goes, hey Porta potty girl. She goes, let's go finish this race together, let's go. And I would have walked the end of that race if not for her. And it was just like, I mean I could cry just talking about it. It was just one of the best days of my life ever and it was I just did not think And everybody you need to have a T-shirt with your name on it like period number one piece of advice, I don't care and nothing else.

I don't care if you write it in a Sharpie. You just have to have it. It was just, yeah, I didn't think that that was anything for me and it was everything. Yeah, a friend of mine, actually, who I need to introduce you to if I haven't already. Cindy has a business called Pen and Paces, and she just made these bib kits where you can put your name and, like, just pin it to your shirt for that very reason. And so, yeah, Amazing. Yeah, amazing. I agree. I remember my New York pictures. It's me. I have 4:00. You know, like name tags, just like sticky name tags.

I like name tags, one with each letter of my name and like tape, like masking tape or like whatever packing on my shirt. It was really beautiful, let me tell you. But I was like, no, I need to have my name on my shirt because I knew having run Chicago before with all the spectators like you have to have your name old cheer for you and it's nothing like hearing your name and like there's it's so magical and inspirational. I didn't realize how much it would affect me to be honest because I was like, who this are strangers like I don't know that that won't that won't mean anything in the night before because it was they were like the temperature got getting higher higher for the forecast and I was like, I can't wear long sleeves I will die.

I'll die. I'm wearing shorts. It's like November I'm wearing shorts in a tank top in the November. I mean, it's unheard of. And it was. So I changed my shirt and I was like, how am I going to get my name on this? I had to go to like this printing press, like there's 20. I put in New York City this 24 hour printing press. Right. Of course you can of course. And I was like it was everything. I mean hearing I remember like mile like 25, I was like I could see the finish. I was like Oh my God, Oh my God, coming around the bend and these little kids are just like screaming and crying and I'm like, I I did not know I would be that affected by the camaraderie of what I felt in that moment or people that I will never see again.

It was just I I hope to give that back and I really look forward to it. So a mile 16 is my post. That's it. But if he needs anything, I'll have your gels, caffeine and non caffeine of water. Whatever you need you guys step by. I love that. Yeah, Anybody who's listening is running New York this year. Look out. That's so that's. Having people like post it up around the marathon too is so nice because. You can just be like OK. I'm just going to see my friends at this mile. I remember when I was running, my friends actually were at mile 16. Now that you say that's crazy.

Yeah, they and that's what they told me they would be. But I texted them pretzels. That's all I texted. Maybe even just pretzel, like that's what I wanted in that moment. I could not the energy, I couldn't type anything else besides like the one word I could get it out. And so I get there and I'm like, do you have the pretzels? Where are the pretzels? No, we did not know what you meant. And I was like literally like what? What else could it have meant? Like give me get me pretzels? Like that's so when I spectated the next year cuz they couple of my friends ran when I did and then vice versa.

And so I went back and I had a bag of pretzels and we made a big ass sign pretzels on it so that people knew like here they are cuz the salt. It's something about I just needed salt and I didn't have any salt tabs with me and so I was like getting pretzels. Anyway, I've never tried fall tabs. Have you tried the LMNT? That's my new That's my favorite electrolytes now. Yeah, I do. I really like. I like salt. So I like the taste of it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, man, this makes me want to run New York again. I'll be there. I'll cheer you on.

I did it. I did it for charity when I ran. So because the lottery is just so hard now. But the logistics of it are no joke, like you've said. It's like it took longer to get to cross the start than it did for me to cross the finish. Yeah, and I finished just just after you. I finished just under 4:30, which was my goal. And yeah, so man, I need you to. We need to I need to meet you in person at some point, too. I would love it. I would love it. You got to come to the Indianapolis Marathon. I'll come in on that because I'm on our board and so I would love to.

You guys need a spot to let me know. Here we go. Yeah, come on in town for it. Although the problem is, I think it's the well. It's the day before New York. Usually, so that's awesome. That's not going to work so well. Wait, I'll be there. You got another one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I so appreciate your time. And like, every time I talk to somebody like you who is building a business, I just get so fired up, so fired up, because it's such a fun thing to be doing. But. I just. I get so much inspiration and motivation from people like you.

So thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. And I can't wait to at one point have that 26.2 on my on my rest because mark my words I will my husband get the hint that I dropped on Instagram. So now I'm gonna have to just tell him, hey, for Christmas this is. The link. This is what you need to buy me. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Listen, we all learned it. We. All learned it. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. So, all right, well, when is your birthday? What's the date? August 4th, so this will come out the day after your birthday. So do you have any big birthday plans?

I'm getting on a plane and going to pick up my kids from sleepaway camp because I am all done with that. It was fun and now I'm I miss them too much. Yeah, where? Where are they? At sleepaway camp, they're in, they're in Switzerland, they're in the Alps, they're like, they're like little, yeah, yeah. Yeah, get out of here. I'm picturing like. They're like, I don't know, upstate New York, somewhere at a camp or, I don't know. My husband is from Europe. And we go to Europe every every summer, but, like, for a couple weeks. Like, nothing. No. But, like, to the countryside. We're not, like, going up here.

Yeah. And so my friend from Connecticut, where I'm live, she was like, look at this camp in the mountains. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this looks so cool. I showed it to my daughter and she was, I'm going. And I'm like, no, you're not. You're 8. You're not going to the mountains without me. I'm not. This is not a thing. And she's like, and then she talked to her twin brother and Jack was like, yeah, I'm going to, we're all going to this. I was like, this is not happening. She And then they started presenting their case. They're like, so eight kids in our classes are going to Sleepway camp.

And I said you're not going to Sleepway camp in the mountain, whatever. So I did the research and I said, you guys, this is the first time you've ever been away from me. And I was a hot mess for like 10 days, 10 days. And now they're already coming back. It was very short, but I dropped them and they were amazing. And they've been, but they can text you every day and like, call you at this camp, but like, but they're opting them out. My kids are not typical American athletes where they go to like a football camp or like it's they don't like any of that stuff.

My son likes to hike and I like to hike. And like, we're just alternative people. So this was like, if I could dream of a camp, it would be this one. It just happens to be really, really far away. And they did it. They're done. They did it. And I got like one letter from my daughter. My daughter stopped. I haven't heard from her in four days. She doesn't stop calling me. They've defected. They've left to me. That's so cool. What a great experience for your children. Like for them, for me, I'm all, yeah. You know, that's the hard part. I know, like, I'm going to watch my kid get on the bus on Monday and I'm going to be.

I know I'm. So I wanted to say that before we started, good luck. I'm kindergarten. I need it. I need. It's a whole thing. Enjoy your mom. It's a big deal. Yeah, OK, so I almost forgot. I was so fired up. I almost forgot to ask you my my two end of the podcast questions. OK, so the first one is do you have? A mantra or song that, like, really gets you fired up for running. Just keep going. Just keep going, just keep going. I like that. And then what is your next finish line or marathon? Do you have any? Do you have any smaller races that you do throughout the year Like, Nope, no.

I think you know, I honestly, I haven't even been able to put my apple like my watch on to track miles after the marathon. It really it was. It's almost become a very sacred thing for me now. So I think I'm not going to enter any. I don't have any compulsion right now to do anything even like a 5K or nothing. I took it the whole year off and I am running for me this year and then I'm going to see where that takes me. But I do think I would like to run New York one more time now that I've done it and I know what to expect.

Yeah, So I'm not making a plan. I think I'm just gonna keep doing the lottery. I think that's my jam. I think if I don't, if I run it one more time, maybe when I'm 55 and I get in next time, who knows what. Will you start? You should start entering the lotteries for all the international ones, cuz I think I'm gonna start doing that just to see. And like, whenever I get in, just be like, well, I gotta do it now be. So fun. If like a bunch of other people got in like that, I know. And we could make a whole thing out of it.

I'm very envious of everybody who's getting ready to go to Berlin because that, oh gosh, one of our ambassadors is headed to Berlin soon. And I mean, it's pretty, it's amazing. It's going to be. I hear it's such a great course, too. There's a lot of really nice flat courses over in Europe. I would do it. I would do it. See, there you go. So just you know, I'll, I'll make sure I reach out to you when that time comes up. Like here's the link you just register. We'll see. What happens? But then, like, yeah, then you get in and you're like, oh shit to your .0 shit.

I'm doing it, I guess. I guess I have to do it now. So yeah, but that's not a bad place to be, right? If the lottery, If it's meant to be, it's meant to be, in my opinion. Yes, I like that. I like that a lot. So, well, have a great birthday weekend getting those kiddos. And thank you everybody who has listened and happy running. Thank you very much.